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¤£ª¾¹D®ü­x¬O§_²{¦b´N¦³¦b³W¹º¤Q¦h¦~«áªº·s³y¥D¤OÄ¥²{¦b´N¥i¥H³W¹ººCºC¨Óµ¥¨ì¤Q¦~«á
¤@¤Á©w®×¦b¥æ¥Ñ¤¤²î»s³y¨º®É¸g¶OÀ³¸Ó¤£·|¦V²{¦b¤@¼Ë¦h¤S½w¤£À٫椰»ò¦¨­x­n¨ì20xx¦~¤@¼Ë
¥¼«Bº÷Á[¤]¹³¤é¥»¤@¼Ë¤Q¦h¦~´N¨O´«·s«O«ùÄ¥¸¥ªº·s¾U¤Î³y²î¼tªº¯à¶q¤¤²î¤£¬O¦³³y¹L4000¦h
¾·ªº¦¨¥\¶Ü¨º±µ¤U¨Ó´«³y5000¦h¹yªºÅX³vÄ¥¹³Áú°ê¤@¼Ë±q¤p²î§@°_¤@¨B¤@¨B¨Ó¨ì³Ì«á¤¤²î´N¯à
§@§ó¤jªº²î¾Ö¦³§ó·sªº§Þ³N§Úı±o³oÂI§Ú­ÌÀ³¸Ó¸ò§Ú­Ìªº¾F©~¦h¦h¾Ç²ßÁú°ê¤é¥»¬Æ¦Ü¤¤°ê¤@¨B¤@¨B
¨Ó¤£­n¦Ñ¬O¦]¬°ªÃ«ù¶Ô»ü«Ø­xªº­ì«h¹³¶§¦r¸¹f104µ¥¤T­x¸Ë³Æ¤@¼Ë¤@¥Î´N¤T¥|¤Q¦~¬Æ¦Ü§Ú­Ìªº¥|¿´¼çÄ¥¤¤ªº¨â¿´ÁÙºaµn¥þ¥@¬É³Ì¥j¦Ñªº²î¦Û¤G¦¸¤j¾ÔªA§Ð¦Ü21¥@¬ö¬O¥þ¥@¬É¦Ü¤µ°ß¤Gªº²î©Ò¥H¤£¥i¥H­«­Ë´Iµ¦¤@©w­n°í±jªº°µ¤U¥h§_«h»¡¤£©w¦¨¥\±d©w´N·|«K¦¨¶§¦r¸¹²Ä¤G¡A¡A¦]¬°²î¦Ñ¤F¦³®É­Ô¨ä¬°­×¶O¬Æ¦Ü¤ñ§Ú­Ì³y·sªº²îªººûÅ@¶OÁÙ¶Q³o¨ººâ¶Ô»ü«Ø­x©Ò¥H»¡¤£¤@©wªF¦è¥Î¤E¤F´N¦n
¤]¤£·|ªÉ¶O¤¤²î¸³¨Æªøªº¨M¤ßÃø±oªº¤H¤~­C¥L¨º»ò¦³¨M¤ß¼Ý¤Oµ²ªG¤j®a¤@ª½¼â¥L§N¤ô´«§@¬O¦U¦ì¤]¬O¤£
·|ªA®ðªº¤£¬O¶Ü§ÚÁ¿§¹¤F ÁÂÁ¡C¡½¡½¡½

NO:362_1
³¯V ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/04 20:05
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¥»¤H¨ì»{¬°¡A»OÆW®ü­xÀ³¸Ó¶R­Ó©Î¬O«Ø³y1¦Ü2¿´¤õ¤O±j¨ì¥ÎÅܺA¨Ó§Î®eªº15000¦Ü20000¾·¯Å¨µ¬vÄ¥
©Î¬Oµ²¦X¤¤¥¿²z¤u,®ü¬v,¦¨¥\,¥xÆWµ¥¤j¾Ç³y²î¨t¨Ó«Ø³y¯èªÅ¥ÀÄ¥,¼g¤U¦p·í¦~¸g°ê¸¹IDF¯Zªº©_ÂÝ!
¤£¹L,¤Á°O­n¯à¥ÃÄòµo®i,¤£¯à¸¨¨ì¹³IDF¤uµ{®v¤@¼Ë¥X¨«Áú°êªº¤U³õ



NO:362_2
great100 ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/04 20:10
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>>¥»¤H¨ì»{¬°¡A»OÆW®ü­xÀ³¸Ó¶R­Ó©Î¬O«Ø³y1¦Ü2¿´¤õ¤O±j¨ì¥ÎÅܺA¨Ó§Î®eªº15000¦Ü20000¾·¯Å¨µ¬vÄ¥
©Î¬Oµ²¦X¤¤¥¿²z¤u,®ü¬v,¦¨¥\,¥xÆWµ¥¤j¾Ç³y²î¨t¨Ó«Ø³y¯èªÅ¥ÀÄ¥,¼g¤U¦p·í¦~¸g°ê¸¹IDF¯Zªº©_ÂÝ!
¤£¹L,¤Á°O­n¯à¥ÃÄòµo®i,¤£¯à¸¨¨ì¹³IDF¤uµ{®v¤@¼Ë¥X¨«Áú°êªº¤U³õ


¤Ó---¤Ó¦j±i¤F,¶°¤¤¤O¶q³y¼ç¸¥¤]³\·N¸q§ó¦³·N¸q¤@¨Ç¡C


NO:362_3
Reinherd´£·þ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/04 21:50
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

§Ú»{¬°°£¤Fknox¤ñ¸û¦³¥²­n²^¨O¥~,¦¨¥\©M©Ôªk·~§ï¨}«áÀ³¸ÓÁ٥Ϊº¤£¿ù,²¦³º²îÄÖ¦~«C«Ü¦h
¤£³X¨Ó°Q½×¤@¤U¦¨¥\©M©Ôªk¸­ªº§ï¨}¤è®×¤Ú?
§Ú­Ó¤Hªº·Qªk:
¦¨¥\:®ü¤½¦Ï+sm2(¨ú¥Nsm1)+©ì¦²¦¡Án¯Ç
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NO:362_4
³¥ÆZ¤H ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/04 22:51
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

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©Î¬Oµ²¦X¤¤¥¿²z¤u,®ü¬v,¦¨¥\,¥xÆWµ¥¤j¾Ç³y²î¨t¨Ó«Ø³y¯èªÅ¥ÀÄ¥,¼g¤U¦p·í¦~¸g°ê¸¹IDF¯Zªº©_ÂÝ!
¤£¹L,¤Á°O­n¯à¥ÃÄòµo®i,¤£¯à¸¨¨ì¹³IDF¤uµ{®v¤@¼Ë¥X¨«Áú°êªº¤U³õ

§A§â­xªZª©·íKUSOª©¶Ü?


NO:362_5
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 09:09
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¦¨¥\:®ü¤½¦Ï+sm2(¨ú¥Nsm1)+©ì¦²¦¡Án¯Ç
©Ôªk¸­:¤Ñ¼C¤G¨¾ªÅ­¸¼u+°ÎÂܳ]­pªº¥D¯¥
¦b¥[¶¯¤T¸ò¦h´X¨ã¤è°}¾Ô¨t´£¤Éµ¥¦hºØ¤è®×


>>>¥»¤H¨ì»{¬°¡A»OÆW®ü­xÀ³¸Ó¶R­Ó©Î¬O«Ø³y1¦Ü2¿´¤õ¤O±j¨ì¥ÎÅܺA¨Ó§Î®eªº15000¦Ü20000¾·¯Å¨µ¬vÄ¥
©Î¬Oµ²¦X¤¤¥¿²z¤u,®ü¬v,¦¨¥\,¥xÆWµ¥¤j¾Ç³y²î¨t¨Ó«Ø³y¯èªÅ¥ÀÄ¥,¼g¤U¦p·í¦~¸g°ê¸¹IDF¯Zªº©_ÂÝ!
¤£¹L,¤Á°O­n¯à¥ÃÄòµo®i,¤£¯à¸¨¨ì¹³IDF¤uµ{®v¤@¼Ë¥X¨«Áú°êªº¤U³õ
§A§â­xªZª©·íKUSOª©¶Ü?
¥i¥H¥ý¸ò¬ü°ê­ncg¥H«á¦bºCºC³y¥X¦Û¤vªº¨µ¬vÄ¥


NO:362_6
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 13:02
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¦¨¥\:®ü¤½¦Ï+sm2(¨ú¥Nsm1)+©ì¦²¦¡Án¯Ç
>©Ôªk¸­:¤Ñ¼C¤G¨¾ªÅ­¸¼u+°ÎÂܳ]­pªº¥D¯¥
>¦b¥[¶¯¤T¸ò¦h´X¨ã¤è°}¾Ô¨t´£¤Éµ¥¦hºØ¤è®×

So, you are going to buy both RAM and TC2? Most likely you would have to choose one or the other.

To make SM-2 work optimally, you would need WDS Mk14. Otherwise, it would be like the Australians buying SM-2 and using them as homing-all-the-way missiles - ie. not much better than SM-1 in range.

As for the PFG-3 La Fayettes, you really need to rip out the Tavitac 2000 and replace it with something the ROCN can modify or upgrade themselves (eg. SSDS). Right now, the Frogs are not helping without charging an arm and a leg for their services. Without their help, the ROCN cannot add new functionalities, sensors or weapons. So you want more CIWS and HF3 ... ?


NO:362_7
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:05
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥


¦¨¥\¯ÅµLªk¦A3ºûªÅ¶¡¤º°lÂܦh¥Ø¼Ð,©Ò¥H¦ÛµMµLªk¦b¤T«×ªÅ¶¡¤º¾É¤Þ¦hªT­¸¼uÄdºI¥Ø¼Ð,°£«D
´«±¼SPS-49(v)5,§ï¦¨¥i´£¨Ñ¤T«×ªÅ¶¡¥Ø¼Ð¸ê®Æªº¹p¹F,§_«h¥ú¬OWDS Mk14+SM2¨ÃµLªk´£¨Ñ¦h¥Ø
¼Ð±µ¾Ô,¨ü¦a²y¦±²v¼vÅT,SAM 40¤½¨½¥H¤Wªº®gµ{¹ê¥Î»ù­ÈÅý¤HÃhºÃ.

¦Ü©ó©Ôªk¸­,¨­¬°°ÎÂÜÄ¥¸¥,§Ú»{¬°¸Ë¤WRAM´N¨¬°÷¤F,§ï¸Ë¦¨°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅÄ¥,¦³ÂI¹³¬ïµÛ©]¦æ¦ç«o´£
­Ó±´·Ó¿O,¦³ÂI¬ð¤a...XD


NO:362_8
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:09
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

»¡ªº¤]¬O¡ô¡ô
¤£¹L±d©w­nµo´§¨ä°ÎÂܳ]­p©Ò¥H¤@©w­n¸Ë¶¯¤T©Î¶¯¤GE

NO:362_9
Agent Toganator ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:18
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

©Ò¦³ªº¦è¤è¤U¤@¥N°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅÄ¥¡]GC-21, Type45, Horizon, F-124, LCF, F-100/136¡^¡A´X¥G³£¬O¬ïµÛ©]¦æ¦ç¡Ï´£­Ó±´·Ó¿O.......

¥H¥Ø«eªº²´¥ú¨Ó¬Ý¡A©Ôªk¸­¨ººØ¢à¢Ñ¢á¬Û·í©ó¤T¤­¦Ê¾·¯Åº®²î¥b½Õ¤lªº°ÎÂܳ]­p¡A®Ú¥»ºâ¤£¤W¤°»ò°ÎÂÜÄ¥¸¥¡A­n¾á¤ß©]¦æ¦ç»P±´·Ó¿O®æ®æ¤£¤Jªº°ÝÃD¡A¥ýµ¥¨ì¥xÆWÀò±o¹³·ç¨åVisby¨ººØ¢à¢Ñ¢á¬Û·í©ó¤@®Ú¤Ñ½uªº°ªÀɳf¤§«á¦A»¡§a..........


NO:362_10
Pikachuu ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:20
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

·|¤£·|¸ò¼çÄ¥¤@¼Ë¢w¢w¬ü¹Ú¤¤¦³³\¦h°ªÀɳf¡A¥u¬O§Ú­Ì¤f³U¿ú¦A¦h¤]®³¤£¨ì¡H

¦pªGí²Ïí¥´¦aºCºC¶i¦æ­Y¤z¥ý¶iÄ¥¸ü¾Ô°«¨t²Î¡B¬Û¦ì°}¦C¹p¹F¡BVLS¡B°ÎÂܳ]­p¡B²îÄ¥³]­pµ¥°ò¦¬ã¨s¡A»¡¤£©w¨ì®É­Ô·|¦³¤@¨Ç¦¨ªG¡]·í¦~ACS¸ò²{¦¨ªº¬£¨½¯Å±ÄÁÊ®×·d¦b¤@°_¡A·íµM¥²±Ñ¡^


NO:362_11
Agent Toganator ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:29
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

©Ôªk¸­¤£¾A¦X§ï¸Ë¦¨²Å¦X»O®ü§@¾Ôªº°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅÄ¥ªºÃöÁä°ÝÃD¦b©ó¡G¾·¦ì¤Ó¤p¥BªÅ¶¡¦³­­¡AMK-41/SM-2©Î®u¥Ëº¸/ASTER-30¤§Ãþªº°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ¤õ¤O¦Ü¦h¥u¯à¸Ë¤Q¤»ªT¡A«o±o§â¾ã­ÓÄ¥¤Wªº¹q¤l¹p¹F¨t²Î¤j¸v§ó°Ê§ï¶i¤@µf¡A¥I¥X»P¦¬¯q¤£¦¨¤ñ¨Ò.......

¤Q¤»ªTªº¨¾ªÅ¤õ¤O¡A«O»Ù¦Û¨­³£¶û¤£¨¬¡A´a½×«O»Ù¤Í­x¡A¤£¦p±Ä¥ÎESSM, ®ü¼C¤G©ÎRAMµ¥»´¤p¥i¥H¸Ë§ó¦hªº¥ý¶iÂI¨¾¿m¤õ¤O¡A«OÅ@¦n¦Û¨­¡A¤]Åý®ü­x¼Æ¶q¦³­­ªº¬ö¼w¡]§Æ±æ¥¼¨ÓÁÙ¦³¯«¬Þ¡^Ä¥©ó¾Ô®É¤Ö¤@­Ó»Ý­n¾Þ¤ß¨ä¦w¦Mªº¹ï¶H¡D


NO:362_12
Agent Toganator ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 16:43
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

·|¤£·|¸ò¼çÄ¥¤@¼Ë¢w¢w¬ü¹Ú¤¤¦³³\¦h°ªÀɳf¡A¥u¬O§Ú­Ì¤f³U¿ú¦A¦h¤]®³¤£¨ì¡H

¢é¡G§Ú­Ìªº¥D­n°ÝÃD¦b©ó¿ú¤Ó¤Ö¡A¤]§[©ó°ê¨¾§ë¸êªá¶O¡D


¦pªGí²Ïí¥´¦aºCºC¶i¦æ­Y¤z¥ý¶iÄ¥¸ü¾Ô°«¨t²Î¡B¬Û¦ì°}¦C¹p¹F¡BVLS¡B°ÎÂܳ]­p¡B²îÄ¥³]­pµ¥°ò¦¬ã¨s¡A»¡¤£©w¨ì®É­Ô·|¦³¤@¨Ç¦¨ªG¡]·í¦~ACS¸ò²{¦¨ªº¬£¨½¯Å±ÄÁÊ®×·d¦b¤@°_¡A·íµM¥²±Ñ¡^

¢Ï¡G
°ÝÃDÃöÁä¥Ã»·³£¬O¨º­Ó¦r¡G¢C

«nÁú¥D­nªº¹ï¤â¥_Áú¡A¨ä¾ãÅé­x¨Æ¹ê¤O¯à§_»P¤¤°ê¬Û´£¨Ã½×¡H¡H¡H¦ý«nÁúªº°ê¨¾¹wºâµL½×ÃB«×ÁÙ¬O¦¨ªø´T«×¡A³£»·°ª©ó¥xÆW¡D

»P·í¤µ¦Ü¤Öºâ¤Ñ¤U²Ä¥|¡A¤Sªñ¦b²´«eªº­x¨Æ±jÅv¬Û¬°¼Ä¡A¥xÆW´Â³¥«o¹ç¥i§â¦³­­ªº¹wºâ§ëª`¦bªÀºÖ¦~ª÷µ¥»â°ì¥H°Q¦n¤H¥Á¡A¦Ó«oÅý§ñÃö°ê¦wªº°ê¨¾¹wºâ¦¨ªø²¿ÃªÃø¦æ


NO:362_13
³¥ÆZ¤H ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 20:12
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>¢é¡G§Ú­Ìªº¥D­n°ÝÃD¦b©ó¿ú¤Ó¤Ö¡A¤]§[©ó°ê¨¾§ë¸êªá¶O¡D

³o­Ë¬O¯uªº,¥u­n§Úªùªº°ê·|ÁÙ¬OÄ~Äò¥ÕÄê¤U¥h,¥xÆWªº°ê¨¾¤u·~¥Ã»·¨S§Æ±æ


NO:362_14
Pikachuu ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 20:22
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

°ê·|¤S¤£¬O¦L¶r¾÷¡AGNP¨S³o»ò¤jÁÙ¦L¯È¶rªº¸Ü¥u·|³q³f¿±µÈÅܦ¨¼o¯È

NO:362_15
Reinherd´£·þ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/05 21:39
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

½Ð°Ý¤@¤U,®ü½b¤G¨ì©³¦s¤£¦s¦b
¬OÄÝ©ó°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ­¸¼uÁÙ¬OÂI¨¾¿m¨¾ªÅ­¸¼u
¦¹¥~,³o2ºØ­¸¼u­n¾ã»ò¤À?

NO:362_17
³¯V ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/06 09:37
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

sorry¡A¤§«e¬O¤@®É½Ä°Êkuso£{¤@¤U
¤£¹L¹ï¥xÆWÃB¨¥¡A¨S¨î®ü´N¬O¦º¸ô¤@±ø

NO:362_18
¤¤¥xÆW¤p²Ô¤h ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/06 13:30
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¨ä¹ê,¥xÆW³y¯èÄ¥¤]¬O¥i¥H°Õ,§Þ³N¤W¨Ã«D¤£¥i¦æ,¾Ô®É¥i¥H¹w¨¾¸U¤@¾÷³õ³Q¸Ñ©ñ­xÅF±¼ªº³Æ¥Î«~,°ÝÃD¬O¿ú¿ú.....¤@¿´­n¤@¤d¦h»õ§a?

¦pªG¥xÆW¦³¤j³W¼Òªº°ê²£ªZ¾¹¬ãµo­p¹º(¤£­n¥~ÁÊ),¤]¥i¼W¥[¤u§@¾÷·|,±a°Ê¬ÛÃö²£·~µo®i(¿ûÅK,¹q¤l,¹q¾÷.....),¹ï¸gÀÙ¦Ó¨¥¨Ã«DÃa¨Æ.


NO:362_19
Agent Toganator ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/06 13:36
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

½Ð°Ý¤@¤U,®ü½b¤G¨ì©³¦s¤£¦s¦b

¢Ï¡G¦s¦b¡A¥u¬O®ü­x¨S¿úÅý¥¦¥¿¦¡¦¨­xªA§Ð

¬OÄÝ©ó°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ­¸¼uÁÙ¬OÂI¨¾¿m¨¾ªÅ­¸¼u

¢Ï¡G­Ó¤H»{¬°¨äÀ³¸Ó¤ñ¸ûÂI¨¾¿m¡þªñµ{°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î

¦¹¥~,³o2ºØ­¸¼u­n¾ã»ò¤À?

¢Ï¡G¦³®Ä®gµ{¤C¤K¤Q¤D¤@¨â¦Ê¤½¨½¯Å¡A°£¤F«OÅ@¦Û¨­¥~¡AÁÙ¥i¥H«O»Ù©P³ò¤ÍÄ¥¨¾ªÅ¦w¥þªº¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡A¬°°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡A¥NªíªÌ¦p¦Ñ¬ü¯«¬Þ¡ÏSM-2¨t¦C¡A¼w²üªºAPAR¡ÏSM-2 MR BLOCK IIIA¡A¦Ñ­^ªºSAMPSON¡ÏASTER-30 BLOCK1/2¡Aªk¸qªºEMPAR¡ÏASTER-30 BLOCK1/2µ¥µ¥

¦³®Ä®gµ{¼Æ¤½¨½¤D¦Ü¤Q¾l¤½¨½¯Å¡A¥u¯à¿Wµ½¨ä¨­ªº¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡A¬°ÂI¨¾¿m¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡A¥NªíªÌ¦p¦Ñ¬ü®ü¤½¦Ï¨t²Î¡A¥_¬ù®ü³Â³¶¨t²Î¡A¦Ñ­^®ü¯T­¸¼u¨t²Î¡A¦Ñªk¦Ì¥d®ü®g«¬»P®üÅT§À³D¨t²Î¡A¥H¦â¦C°{¹q¨t²Îµ¥µ¥¡D¡D¡D¡D¡D

¦ý¬O®gµ{¤T¤Q¦Ü¤­¤Q¤½¨½¤§¶¡ªº¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡AÁöµM¤´¥H«O»Ù¦Û¨­¦w¥þ¬°¥D¡A¦ýÁÙ¬O¦³³¡¥÷«O»Ù¨­®Ç¤ÍÄ¥¯à¤Oªº¨t²Î¡A­Ó¤H»{¬°¨äÀ³ÄÝÂI¨¾¿m¡þªñµ{°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¡A¨Ò¦p¦Ñ¬üªºSM-1¨t¦C»PESSM¡A¦Ñ¼ÚªºASTER-15¡A¦Ñ­^ªº®ü¼Ðºj¨t²Î¡A§Ú°êªº®ü¼C¤Gµ¥µ¥..........


NO:362_20
Àؽu ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/06 15:02
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¨ä¹ê,¥xÆW³y¯èÄ¥¤]¬O¥i¥H°Õ,§Þ³N¤W¨Ã«D¤£¥i¦æ

¤Ñ°Ú~
³o¸Ì¤@¤j°ï¤H«e°}¤l¦b¤¤°ê¯è¥ÀÄæ°v¤F¤@°ïCIP¡M³£¨S¬Ý°Ú¡S
»]®ð¼u®g¦³¨º´X­Ó°ê®a°µ±o¥X¨Ó¡S¡T
¬O°Ú¡T¥xÆW¥i¥H³y¯èÄ¥¡M­¸¾÷¯à¤£¯à­°¸¨°Ú¡S
ÁÙ¦³¡M¯èÄ¥°_­°ªº­¸¾÷¸ò¤@¯ë³°°òªº°_¸¨¬[¬O®t«Ü¦hªº
³o¦ì¤j­ô¡M½Ð±z¦hŪ¸ê®Æ®w¡M¦n¶Ü


NO:362_27
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/07 08:54
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¨ä¹ê§Ú¬Oı±o°Õ§Y¨Ï±N¨Ó±d©wªºb¬°§Y¨Ï¥u¯à¸Ë16ªT¼C¤G¤]¬O­nµ¹¥L¸Ë¥ý¤£»¡¿ú¿úªº°ÝÃD
¦Ü¤Ö¦³¤F16ªTÂI¨¾¿m¡þªñµ{°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¥H¤@¿´¨ÓÁ¿¨º¤»¿´´N¦³96ªTÁö¸ò°O¼w¯«¬Þ¬Æ¦Ü¦¨¥\¤ñ°_¨Ó
³o¼Æ¶qÁö¤Ö¦¨¥\¤@¿´´N¥|¤Q¦hªT¤FµM±d©w¦Ü¤ÖÁ`¦³ÄÝ©ó¦Û¤vªº¨¾ªÅ¨t²Î¤]¥i¥H´î»´°O¼w¯«¬Þ¬Æ¦Ü¦¨¥\
ªº¨¾ªÅ­t¾á¤S¬O°ê²£ªZ¾¹¤£¬O«Ü¦n¶Ü©Ò¥H¦¹¤è®×ÁÙ¬O­n¦h¦h¹ªÀy

NO:362_28
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/08 08:22
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¦¨¥\¯ÅµLªk¦A3ºûªÅ¶¡¤º°lÂܦh¥Ø¼Ð,©Ò¥H¦ÛµMµLªk¦b¤T«×ªÅ¶¡¤º¾É¤Þ¦hªT­¸¼uÄdºI¥Ø¼Ð,°£«D
>´«±¼SPS-49(v)5,§ï¦¨¥i´£¨Ñ¤T«×ªÅ¶¡¥Ø¼Ð¸ê®Æªº¹p¹F,§_«h¥ú¬OWDS Mk14+SM2¨ÃµLªk´£¨Ñ¦h¥Ø
>¼Ð±µ¾Ô,¨ü¦a²y¦±²v¼vÅT,SAM 40¤½¨½¥H¤Wªº®gµ{¹ê¥Î»ù­ÈÅý¤HÃhºÃ.

First of all, WDS Mk14 allows you to guide SM-2 to twice the range of SM-1. The Canadians finds this worthwhile to have on the TRUMP upgrade even without a 3D radar to support multi-target engagement capability.

The curvature of the earth limits the ability of the SAM to engage seaskimmers beyond the horizon range ~40km. High altitude targets, such as a helo or a maritime patrol plane designating targets for sea skimmers can be engaged. THAT is very useful to have - and was one of the reasons for the Canadian TRUMP upgrade getting SM-2 (shoot the Bears that guide the missiles).

SPS-49A MPU which is being fitted to the PFG-2 has an operating mode that would allow some height-finding capability taking advantage of multi-path transmission.

In addition, the Mk 92 CAS has a height-finding capability. The search radar beam is stepped up 4 beamwidths over 3 scans (rotations) and then back down in half a scan. Target height can be determined using this spiral scan technique. The range performance of this X-band system is not as good as the S-band SPS-48E. However, with the CORT enhancement in Mk 92 mod 6 in service on the PFG-2, the Mk 92 radars are achieving twice the detection and tracking range of the older mod 2 version. That puts the performance into the range envelope of SM-2.

What all this means is that with sufficient computing power to conduct datafusion, the radars on the PFG-2s will be able to keep track of a significant number of air targets in 3D. In other words, SPS-48E is not the only way to get things done. A radar datafusion system would sample from all radars on the ship (2D and 3D data from SPS-49, 3D data from Mk 92 CAS and 2D data from SPS-55) to generate a composite track - with coordinates and height data. With a stream of target tracks in 3D going into the WDS Mk 14, it would be able to direct multiple SM-2 simultaneously against multiple targets. That is, provided it can track the missile downlink. For that, you would need SYR-1.

One way of getting sufficient computing power to provide the datafusion is doing an upgrade to the SYS-2 Integrated Automatic Detection and Tracking (IADT) system. The US Navy Field Change 2 kit using a PowerPC processor to replace the UYK-44 will do the job. The Kidds will have the system installed when the are transferred - getting the same modification to the Cheng Kungs would be very useful. (There are also other COTS processors eg. one by Vitro that can do the job).

Another way is to upgrade to Mk 92 mod 12 like the Australians for their FFG UP program. This involves coverting the system to an open-architecture, databus linked UYQ-70 consoles. The UYQ-70 consoles each have more computing power than the original central system computer. One of the UYQ-70 could run software to do the datafusion.

Does that answer the question about whether the PFG-2 radars could support SM-2 engagements?


NO:362_29
ªÛ¼_ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/08 19:22
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¤£ºÞ«ç»ò»¡¥u§Æ±æ¤U¤@¥N»OÆW®ü­xªºÄ¥¸¥¯à§¹¥þ¦Û¨î¤£­n¹³¤G¥NÄ¥¸¥¨º¼Ë¤j²î«Ü¤j¤p²î«Ü¤p
¤¤¶¡³£¨S¦³»Î±µªº¦a¤è¤]§Æ±æ¤¤²î³yªº§@¾ÔÄ¥¶V¨Ó¶V¤j¶V¨Ó¶V­««~½è¶V¨Ó¶V¦n

NO:362_30
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/09 02:44
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Let us get some basic principles clear here. In countries where shipyards have established expertise and a healthy order sheet, the hull makes up a small proportion of the total cost of a warship. Within these parameters, Norman Freidman always says steel is cheap - building a bigger hull allows you to have growth margins needed for upgrades to keep the systems up-to-date.

The electronics and weapons needed to bring a ship up to capabilities to do its job after a few years of service would likely be more expensive than building the original ship. But the electronics are expensive whether you put them on an old hull or on a new one.

Saving money on the hull when you first build the warship is not a smart thing to do. It is penny-wise, pound foolish as illustrated by the Royal Navy Leander class frigates, the Type 42 DDG and the US FFG-7. Naval weapon and electronic systems go out of date almost as fast as your PC. Having a hull with small growth margins meant that the Leanders had to sacrifice its gun for Exocets and the Type 42 never getting Exocets (had to substitute a Gemini for its whale boat just to install Phalanx).

In contrast, Reuven Leopald designed plenty of growth margins into the Spruance hull. While the ship looked under armed when they first commissioned, it grew into a potent land attack platform 60+ TLAM in VLS and the premier ASW platform with a LF bow sonar and a towed array with two ASW helos. The basic hull also had enough margins to fit Aegis (CG-47 class) or NTU (Kidd class DDG).

The Australians found that even with the technical capabilities to build FFG-7s, without the economies of scale of US or ROK shipyards, their unit costs were still much higher than buying from the US.

For the ROC, without any hope of export, the cost situationm is even worse. Building their own hulls is now a significant cost burden rather than the cheapest part of the warship. Weapons and electronics are always going to be expensive and go out of date very quickly.

The logical thing to do would be to get usable hulls as cheaply as possible and invest the money on refurbishing them and mounting the most up-to-date systems. The Wu Chin program is a great example of how this could be done and done well. The FRAM DD were old but had another 15-20 years of useful hull life with refurbishment. They were purchased at very low cost. After modernization, the ships provided useful service for at least another 15 years.

Question now is whether it is the best use of limited resources to buy new hulls or to refurbish and modernize old ones.


NO:362_32
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/10 04:23
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

I stongly agree with fer-de-lances points. Getting cheap hulls and install up-to-date weapon control system might be the solution for our Navy.

NO:362_34
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/10 15:57
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô¦³½Ö¯à½Ķ¤@¤U©O¬Ý¤£À´­^¤å

NO:362_35
Pikachuu ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/10 17:43
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>Norman Freidman always says steel is cheap - building a bigger hull allows you to have growth margins needed for upgrades to keep the systems up-to-date.

½Ö¬ONorman Freidman¡H

>>Saving money on the hull when you first build the warship is not a smart thing to do. It is penny-wise, pound foolish as illustrated by the Royal Navy Leander class frigates, the Type 42 DDG and the US FFG-7. Naval weapon and electronic systems go out of date almost as fast as your PC. Having a hull with small growth margins meant that the Leanders had to sacrifice its gun for Exocets and the Type 42 never getting Exocets (had to substitute a Gemini for its whale boat just to install Phalanx).

­Ó¤Hı±oFFG7ÁÙ¨S¦³Åý¬ü°ê¤H«á®¬¤Ó¡u«d¨¬¾A¼i¡v¡A¤Ï¥¿¤£¬O¥D¤OÄ¥¸¥¡Aº¸«áªºÂX¥R¤]ÁÙ¤£¿ù¡F­^°êÄ¥¸¥´N¤ñ¸û©úÅã¤F¡A¤×¨ä¬O³·µáº¸¡A·íªì¬°¤F¬Ù¿ú¡A¬Ý¬Ý¦bºÖ®q¾Ôª§¤¤¥I¥X¦h¤Ö¥N»ù¡C

>>In contrast, Reuven Leopald designed plenty of growth margins into the Spruance hull. While the ship looked under armed when they first commissioned, it grew into a potent land attack platform 60+ TLAM in VLS and the premier ASW platform with a LF bow sonar and a towed array with two ASW helos. The basic hull also had enough margins to fit Aegis (CG-47 class) or NTU (Kidd class DDG).

Spruanceªº½T¬O­Ó¦n¨Ò¤l¡A¤@¶}©l¸Ë³ÆÁ¡®z±oÅý¬ü°êÁֽ׸õ¸}¡A¦ý«á¨ÓÂX¥R´T«×·¥¤j¡A¤£¥i¦P¤é¦Ó»y¡A¦Ó¥BÁÙµo®i¥XKidd»P´£±d¼wù¥[¡C

>>For the ROC, without any hope of export, the cost situationm is even worse. Building their own hulls is now a significant cost burden rather than the cheapest part of the warship. Weapons and electronics are always going to be expensive and go out of date very quickly.

µL©`¡C§Y«K«Ø¥ß¬ãµo¯à¶q¡A´N¸gÀٮįq¦Ó¨¥ÁÙ¬O¤£¦Eºâ¡C¤£ª¾§Ú­Ì¦³¨S¦³¿ìªk¹³¤é¥»¡B«nÁú¤@¼Ë¦³«ùÄò¤£Â_¦a³yÄ¥¥Hºû«ù²£¯à¡H

>>The logical thing to do would be to get usable hulls as cheaply as possible and invest the money on refurbishing them and mounting the most up-to-date systems. The Wu Chin program is a great example of how this could be done and done well. The FRAM DD were old but had another 15-20 years of useful hull life with refurbishment. They were purchased at very low cost. After modernization, the ships provided useful service for at least another 15 years.

©Ò¥H»Õ¤U»{¬°§Ú°êÀ³¸Ó¯²­É¬ü°ê¤j«¬°£§ÐÄ¥¸¥(Spruanceµ¥)µM«á¶i¦æ¤É¯ÅÅo¡H¦b¬ü°ê®ü­x³Æ§Ð¦~­­¤º¡A§Ú­Ì¯à¤£¯à¶i¦æ¤j§ï¸Ë¡H


NO:362_36
flak ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/10 18:09
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>½Ö¬ONorman Freidman¡H
¤@¦ì®ü­x¬ì§Þ¤è­±¬Û·íµÛ¦Wªº¬ü°ê­x¨Æ§@®a¡AµÛ§@»á¦h¡A¤j·§©MªÅ¾ÔªºBill Sweetman®t¤£¦h¡C
±i¤å¥ý¥Í¦b±a§Ú¤Jªùªº®É­Ô¡A´N¬O¤¶²Ð§Ú§ä¥Lªº®Ñ¡]¤£¹L§Úı±o¯u¥¿Åý§Ú¤Jªùªº®Ñ¡AÁÙ¬OSkonick¡A±q¦¹¤£¨ü¶m³¥©_½Íªº°g´b¡^¡A±i¤å¥ý¥Í¸ò¥LÁÙ¦³ÂI¨p¥æ¡Cfer-de-lance ¦Ñ¤j¥i¯à¤]¬O§a¡H¦]¬°§Úı±o§A­Ì¹ï¤@¨Ç¨Æ±¡ªº¬Ýªk»P½×­zªº¤èªk³£«Üªñ¡A¬Ý°_¨Ó´N¹³¦P¤@­Ó°é¤lªº¡C

NO:362_37
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/10 18:30
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

·í¤H²½¥XNational Pride¤S©Î¾Ô²¤»Ý­n®É¦Ó¤SÄ@·N¥I¥X¥N»ù, ¬Æ¦Ü¬O¾÷·|¥N»ù®É, ¦b¦Û»s¤W, §Ú­ÌÁÙ¬O¨Sªk¥XÁnªº.
¦ýROCN¤§¤@¼É¤Q´HªºÁʸm¤è¦â¬O¥OÄ¥Åé»ù¿ú¤j¤Éªº¨ä¤¤¤@­Ó­ì¦]. ³o¨Ç¥ß©e¥uÀ´°ª³Û°êÄ¥°ê°µ, ¦ý¥L­Ì­Ë¥H¬°´¿°µ¹L­xÄ¥, ¨º§Þ³N«K¤d¸ü¤£Åܦb§A¥ª¥k. ®í¤£ª¾¥u­n¨â¦~¨S¦³¥Í²£, «K¨¬¥H°µ¦¨ÄY­«¤§«áªG, ¾Ç²ß¦±½u«K®t¤£¦h­«ÀY¨Ó.
BTW T42­Ë¬O©è­^°ê¨Ð¦ºªº, ±q«e¤uÄÒ¦º©êbuy Europeªº±Ð±ø¦ý­¸³½«o¥¿¥´¤¤T42¤§¦º¥Þ-¦û¥ÎªÅ¶¡¤Ó¤j. ¦V¤j¦è¬v¹ï©¤¨D¸g¬O¥i¥H¸Ñ¨Mªº. ³oÁÙ¬O¨ìT22B3¤~¯à¼·¶Ã¤Ï¥¿, ¦ý¦^·Q¤@¼h, ÁÙ¤£¹L¬O¤­¤Q¨B¯º¤@¦Ê¨B¦Ó¤w

NO:362_38
ªÛ¼_ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/11 18:59
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô¨S¦³¥Îªü¦]¬°°ê­xªÃ«ù¶ÔÀ˫حx­ì«h
©Ò¥H¦³¥i¯à¶§¦r¸¹ªº¨Æ±¡·|­«ºt
¦Ó±d©w¸ò¦¨¥\¦³¥i¯àÅܦ¨¶§¦r²Ä¤G
«s¥u¯à»¡­x¤è¤Ó«O¦u¤FªF¦è«D±o­n
¥Î¨ì¯uªº¤£¯à¦b¥Î¤F¤~·|¦Ò¼{´«·s
·¥¨Ï¬O¦Û¤v¯à¦Ê¤À¤§¦Ê¥Í²£ªº¸Ë³Æ¤]¤@¼Ë
«s.....,..0

NO:362_39
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/12 07:50
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>Spruanceªº½T¬O­Ó¦n¨Ò¤l¡A¤@¶}©l¸Ë³ÆÁ¡®z±oÅý¬ü°êÁֽ׸õ¸}¡A¦ý«á¨ÓÂX¥R´T«×·¥¤j¡A¤£¥i¦P¤é¦Ó»y¡A¦Ó¥BÁÙµo®i¥XKidd»P´£±d¼wù¥[¡C

>©Ò¥H»Õ¤U»{¬°§Ú°êÀ³¸Ó¯²­É¬ü°ê¤j«¬°£§ÐÄ¥¸¥(Spruanceµ¥)µM«á¶i¦æ¤É¯ÅÅo¡H

Yes Sir. Its cheap and we can replace our ÀÙ¶§¯Å with 8 Spruance class, but they must be ¼öÄ¥¥æ±µ from US Navy. We should also buy 8 more SH60 or SH70 for ¤Ï¼ç purpose and 16 MK49 (two for each ship) (loaded with RIM 116 Block 1 HAS) for self air defense and anti-¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼u purpose. MK49 system can be guided by SLQ32 system which is the standard equipment for Spruance.


NO:362_40
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/14 18:23
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¶âÂà¶K¤@¤ULuke-Skywalker¤j­ôªº¶K»D
Re:ºô¤Í¯d¨¥Äæpart.137

«z«¨........¥xÆW¥Á¶¡·~ªÌÀH«K´N¥i¥H®³¥X¤W»õ·s¥x¹ô·d©w³o¨Ç³Â·Ðª±·N¨à¡A¹ê¤O¯u¬O¥i©È.....

http://news.chinatimes.com/Chinatimes/newslist/newslist-content/0,3546,110503+112003121300050,00.html
2003.12.13 ¤¤°ê®É³ø
ªF¬â¥_¹B ½Ð¨Ó¡u¬ü«XÁp­x¡v
²¯D¨^/©yÄõ³ø¾É

¦ì©ó©yÄõ¿¤º~¥»¦a°Ïªº¶¯¬PÄq³õ¡A¬°¤F¸`¬Ù¹B¿é¦¨¥»¡A¤Þ¶i«Xù´µ®ü­x°h§Ðªºµn³°Ä¥¡A¯àª½±µ¶}¤W®üÅy¸Ë¸ü¬â¥Û¡AÀò±o¤¤¥¡¬ÛÃö³¡·|¤ä«ù¡A¦]¹L¥h¨S¦³®×¨Ò¥i´`¡A¿¤¬F©²¾á¤ß¼vÅTº®·~¥ÍºA¡A·~ªÌ¤Q¤G¤é«ô·|¿¤©²»¡©ú¡C

¶¯¬PÄq³õªÑªFªí¥Ü¡A³o¿´µn³°Ä¥­ìÁõÄÝ«Xù´µ¶Â®üÄ¥¶¤¡A±Æ¤ô¶q¥|¤d¤­¦Ê¾·¡A²îÄÖ¤Q¤G¦~¡A«Xù´µ¸ÑÅé«á²¨©óºûÅ@¡Aº¢´ä¦h®É¡A¥h¦~«e©¹±µ¬¢¡A«X­x¤è¦P·N¥X°â¡A¸g³z¹L¥~¥æ³¡«Xù´µ¿ì¤½³B¨ó§U¡A¥H¨â¦Ê¤­¤Q¸U¬üª÷Áʱo¡C

¤W¤ë¦^¨ì¥x¤¤´ä·Ç³Æ§ï¸Ë¡A¨Ãµn°O¬°¤¤µØ¥Á°ê²îÄy¡A¥Ñ©ó¨Ó¦Û´H§Nªº¥_¤è¡A¦^°ê«á¤ÞÀº»Ý¥[¥H¸Ë­×¡A¨Ã¥[¤j²î¨­¡A¦w¸Ë¿é°e±a¡A¦ôºâ¤@¯è¦¸¥i¸Ë¸ü¤»¤d¾·¬â¥Û¡A§ï¸Ë¶Oªì¦ô¤@¤d¤G¦Ê¸U¤¸¡A³s¦P²î¨­¦@»Ý¤E¤d¤E¦Ê¦h¸U¤¸¡C

·~ªÌªí¥Ü¡A±Ä¥Îµn³°Ä¥ªº°Ê¾÷¡A¬Oº~¥»Äq³õÁöµM¶ZÂ÷©M¥­´ä«Üªñ¡A¦ý©M¥­´ä¬°¤u·~°Ï±M¥Î´ä¡A¤£¦P·Nªy¾a¬â¥Û²î¡A¦ÓĬªá¤½¸ô¥d¨®¬y¶q¤Ó¤j¡A¸ô­±§|§|¬}¬}¡A¤w¤£³ô­t²ü¡Fµn³°Ä¥«h¥u»Ý¯B°Ê½XÀY¡A¥d¨®¥i¥Hª½±µ¾p¤J²î¿µ¡C

¯B°Ê½XÀY¡A¨Ó¦Û¤é¥»¾î¶·¶P­x´ä¬ü­xªº­¸¾÷¶]¹D¡A¦]¬°¶]¹D¬°¿û§÷²k»s¡A­¸¾÷°_­°®É¾¸­µ¤Ó¤j¡Aªþªñ©~¥Á±j¯P¤Ï¼u¡A¨M©w©î°£¥X°â¡F¶¯¬PÄq³õ¹w¥I¤F¬üª÷¤T¦Ê¸U¤¸­qª÷¡A¶R¤F¨ä¤¤¤@ºI¡A¼e¤»¤Q¤½¤Ø¡Bªø¤G¦Ê¤½¤Ø¡A°ª¤Q¤G¤½¤Ø¡A¥u»Ý¿¤©²­ºªÖ¡A§Y¥i©ì¦^çE³]¡C


NO:362_41
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 07:41
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

First of all, WDS Mk14 allows you to guide SM-2 to twice the range of SM-1. The Canadians finds this worthwhile to have on the TRUMP upgrade even without a 3D radar to support multi-target engagement capability.
The curvature of the earth limits the ability of the SAM to engage seaskimmers beyond the horizon range ~40km. High altitude targets, such as a helo or a maritime patrol plane designating targets for sea skimmers can be engaged. THAT is very useful to have - and was one of the reasons for the Canadian TRUMP upgrade getting SM-2 (shoot the Bears that guide the missiles).

A:¥[®³¤j¦³Âyºµªº»Ý¨D,©Ò¥H´«¸Ë®gµ{¤jªºSM2ºâ¬Omake sense,µM¦Ó¥xÆW­±¹ïªº§ó¦h¬O¨ã³Æ§CªÅ¬ð¨¾,Äâ±a±°®ü¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼uªºSU-30MKK,FBC-1,³°°òASM¤]¥i¥Hª½±µ«Â¯Ù¦è©¤´ä¤f,¦¹®É¥u©È¨S¦³¨ººØ¥[®³¤j®É¶¡®³SM2¤@ªT¤@ªTºCºC®g,²¨¥¤§,ºµ¦b¥x®ü¬OÃxÁ{µ´ºØ,¥Hºµ¬°°²·Q¼Ä·Pı©Ç©Çªº.¦¹¥~³s¬ü°ê¤]¤£´±»¡SM2¥i¥H¹ï¥Iºµ,©Ò¥HF14¤~·|½Ï¥Í¦b¦a²y¤W¤£¬O¶Ü? :)


NO:362_42
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 08:12
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

SPS-49A MPU which is being fitted to the PFG-2 has an operating mode that would allow some height-finding capability taking advantage of multi-path transmission.

A:¹B¥Î¦h­«¸ô®|¨Ó¸Ñºâ°ª«×,ªº½T¬Oº¡¯«©_ªº,AN/SPS-48E·|¤£·|¨S¶º¦Y°Ú..XDD

In addition, the Mk 92 CAS has a height-finding capability. The search radar beam is stepped up 4 beamwidths over 3 scans (rotations) and then back down in half a scan. Target height can be determined using this spiral scan technique. The range performance of this X-band system is not as good as the S-band SPS-48E. However, with the CORT enhancement in Mk 92 mod 6 in service on the PFG-2, the Mk 92 radars are achieving twice the detection and tracking range of the older mod 2 version. That puts the performance into the range envelope of SM-2.

A:Âà¤T¦¸¬°¦ó¥i¥HÅ|°_¥|¹Dªi§ô°Ú?(§Ú¬O¯uªº¤£À´..XDD),¦¹¥~³o¼Ë§ó·s²v©M»~®t·|¤£·|¤Ó¤j©O?§ÚÁ`ıªº­±¹ï¦hªT±°®ü­¸¼u,³o¨Ç¯uªº¦³¥Î¶Ü? @@


NO:362_43
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 08:29
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

What all this means is that with sufficient computing power to conduct datafusion, the radars on the PFG-2s will be able to keep track of a significant number of air targets in 3D. In other words, SPS-48E is not the only way to get things done. A radar datafusion system would sample from all radars on the ship (2D and 3D data from SPS-49, 3D data from Mk 92 CAS and 2D data from SPS-55) to generate a composite track

A:¦¨¥\¯ÅªºMK92 MOD6 & SYS-2´N¥i¥H¾ã¦X©Ò¦³¹p¹F¸ê°T¦¨¬°¤@­Ó³æ¤@°lÂÜÀÉ,©Ò¥H¹ï±°®ü¥Ø¼Ð¦³«Ü°ªªº°»´ú²v,¤£¹L³£¨S¦³¬Ý¨ì¨ä¥i¥H°lÂܤT«×ªÅ¶¡ªº¦h¥Ø¼Ðªº³ø¾É.(¼o¸Ü,¦³¬Ý¹L´N¤£·|»¡¦¨¥\¯ÅµLªk¦A3ºûªÅ¶¡¤º°lÂܦh¥Ø¼Ð..XDD),¥H«e¦b®ü­x®É,¤W²î°ÑÆ[³£¬O¬Ý¼ö¾x,¨S¦³¬Ýªù¹D...:P


NO:362_44
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 08:36
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

­Ó¤Hı±oFFG7ÁÙ¨S¦³Åý¬ü°ê¤H«á®¬¤Ó¡u«d¨¬¾A¼i¡v¡A¤Ï¥¿¤£¬O¥D¤OÄ¥¸¥¡Aº¸«áªºÂX¥R¤]ÁÙ¤£¿ù¡F­^°êÄ¥¸¥´N¤ñ¸û©úÅã¤F¡A¤×¨ä¬O³·µáº¸¡A·íªì¬°¤F¬Ù¿ú¡A¬Ý¬Ý¦bºÖ®q¾Ôª§¤¤¥I¥X¦h¤Ö¥N»ù¡C

A:FFG-7¦³­Ó¥v¶ð§J¸¹,¸òTYPE-42¯uªººâ¬OÃø¥SÃø§Ì,Å¥»¡·í®É¥v¶ð§J¸¹­è°µ¹L®ø¨¾¸ËÀË,Ä¥¤W®ø¨¾³]³Æ¥R¨¬,©Ò¥H¿N¤£¦º..:p


NO:362_45
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 11:21
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>:¥[®³¤j¦³Âyºµªº»Ý¨D,©Ò¥H´«¸Ë®gµ{¤jªºSM2ºâ¬Omake sense,µM¦Ó¥xÆW­±¹ïªº§ó¦h¬O¨ã³Æ§CªÅ¬ð¨¾,Äâ±a±°®ü¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼uªºSU-30MKK,FBC-1,³°°òASM¤]¥i¥Hª½±µ«Â¯Ù¦è©¤´ä¤f,¦¹®É¥u©È¨S¦³¨ººØ¥[®³¤j®É¶¡®³SM2¤@ªT¤@ªTºCºC®g,²¨¥¤§,ºµ¦b¥x®ü¬OÃxÁ{µ´ºØ,¥Hºµ¬°°²·Q¼Ä·Pı©Ç©Çªº.¦¹¥~³s¬ü°ê¤]¤£´±»¡SM2¥i¥H¹ï¥Iºµ,©Ò¥HF14¤~·|½Ï¥Í¦b¦a²y¤W¤£¬O¶Ü? :)

Who do you think will provide target indication for the Su-30MKK or, more appropriately, the PLANAF JH-7? The Taiwan Strait equivalent of the Bear threat is the Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) version of the Y-8, itself based on the An-12 - NATO reporting name ... Cub.

To effectively deal with or deter the MPA target, you need the long range of the SM-2.

FYI, the F-14/AIM-54 combo was developed before SM-2.


NO:362_46
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 11:53
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>©Ò¥H»Õ¤U»{¬°§Ú°êÀ³¸Ó¯²­É¬ü°ê¤j«¬°£§ÐÄ¥¸¥(Spruanceµ¥)µM«á¶i¦æ¤É¯ÅÅo¡H

>Yes Sir. Its cheap and we can replace our ÀÙ¶§¯Å with 8 Spruance class, but they must be >¼öÄ¥¥æ±µ from US Navy. We should also buy 8 more SH60 or SH70 for ¤Ï¼ç purpose and 16 >MK49 (two for each ship) (loaded with RIM 116 Block 1 HAS) for self air defense and anti->¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼u purpose. MK49 system can be guided by SLQ32 system which is the standard >equipment for Spruance.

There are 8 Sprucans equipped with RAM Block 0 and 3 with Block I (one launcher each). They use the SWY-3 Self-Defense Surface Missile System to direct engagements. There is also the SYQ-17 RAIDS tactical decision aid to help support AShM defense engagements. RAIDS brings together info from the radars (including data from the CIWS radars) and the SLQ-32 EW system to help the TAO coordinate the defense of the ship.

The SQS-53C and the SQR-19/SQQ-89 would be the primary reason for getting the Sprucans. The self-defense stuff is just to help make it survive the threat so that she could carry out its primary mission - ASW. If we do get any, make sure TDSS with the latest software upgrades thrown in. If LAMPS III is released, I would take it - USN standard equipment. The shipboard equipment of LAMPS is integrated with SQQ-89 and the helo is also more capable than the S-70C(M)2. With their large size and high level of manning, there may be a need for a hi-lo mix with the Sprucans serving as flotilla leaders for the smaller PCEG.


NO:362_47
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 12:13
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>A:¹B¥Î¦h­«¸ô®|¨Ó¸Ñºâ°ª«×,ªº½T¬Oº¡¯«©_ªº,AN/SPS-48E·|¤£·|¨S¶º¦Y°Ú..XDD

Use of fade charts to estimate target altitude for a 2D surface radar is a well known technique. Use of multipath propagation to estimate target height is not all that ¯«©_. How do you think the APS-145 on the E-2T determines the target altitude?

>A:Âà¤T¦¸¬°¦ó¥i¥HÅ|°_¥|¹Dªi§ô°Ú?(§Ú¬O¯uªº¤£À´..XDD),¦¹¥~³o¼Ë§ó·s²v©M»~®t·|¤£·|¤Ó¤j©O?§ÚÁ`ıªº­±¹ï¦hªT±°®ü­¸¼u,³o¨Ç¯uªº¦³¥Î¶Ü? @@

This just means the search radar beam is mechanically steered to cover different elevations. SPS-48E steers its beams more precisely using electronic scanning but mechanical scanning works also. You can work out the maths yourself. The CAS search antenna rotates at 60 rpm. The beam cycles through all its elevations in 4.5 rotations, giving a 3D data renewal rate of ~14 times a minute. Guess how many times the SPS-48E rotate in a minute?

Precision or angular resolution is a determined by beamwidth and signal processing. The Mk 92 radars have narrow beams and the mod.6 has processing that allows 2X improvements in range and low angle performance vs the mod.2. Having a height-finidng capability does not decrease the anti-sea skimmer capabilities of the system. In any event, the targets are designated to fire control radars (ie. STIR or the tracker in CAS) for more precise tracking and fire control.

>A:¦¨¥\¯ÅªºMK92 MOD6 & SYS-2´N¥i¥H¾ã¦X©Ò¦³¹p¹F¸ê°T¦¨¬°¤@­Ó³æ¤@°lÂÜÀÉ,©Ò¥H¹ï±°®ü¥Ø¼Ð¦³«Ü°ªªº°»´ú²v,

SYS-2 integrates the high angle coverage of SPS-49 also. It improves auto detection and tracking of high angle AND low angle target. The Field Change 2 (Northrop TMS) would improve performance and be able to make better use of the data from all the radars on the ship. With improved 3D track generation, the next thing would be to upgrade the CDS. The Mk 92 to mod 12 or SSDS are options which would the CDS to better exploit the 3D target data stream - ue track more targets simlutaneously. To best exploit upgrade this would be to add WDS Mk 14 and SM-2.


NO:362_48
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 12:39
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô­^¤åÁÙ¬O¬Ý¤£À´¦³½Ö¯àµf·Nªü

NO:362_49
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 16:14
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¡ô­^¤åÁÙ¬O¬Ý¤£À´¦³½Ö¯àµf·Nªü

­n½Ķ½Ð¨ì

http://www.worldlingo.com/products_services/worldlingo_translator.html


NO:362_52
ªÛ¼_ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/15 19:26
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

ªø¥Õ¤Ñ¤}¤U®ü¡ô¡ô??????????¬Ý¨Ó¤p¯«¬Þacs­n´_¬¡¤F

NO:362_53
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 04:11
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Who do you think will provide target indication for the Su-30MKK or, more appropriately, the PLANAF JH-7? The Taiwan Strait equivalent of the Bear threat is the Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA) version of the Y-8, itself based on the An-12 - NATO reporting name ... Cub.
To effectively deal with or deter the MPA target, you need the long range of the SM-2.

A:¦pªG§A¬O«üÄ¥¶¤¦ì¸mªº±¡³ø±q­þ¸Ì¨Ó,§Ú·QÀ³¸Ó¦³º¡¦h¤â¬qªº§a,½Ã¬P,±¡³ø²î,¼çÄ¥,UAV,¹q°»¾÷,¼ÄÄ¥¸üª½ª@¾÷¥H¤Î§A´£¨ìªº®ü¬v¨µÅÞ¾÷,¥¼¨Ó¥i¯àªº¹wĵ¾÷,¬Æ¦Ü¤¤µØ¥Á°ê®ü­x¥»¨­,¤¤¬ì°|,°ê¦w§½¥»¨­¬ª±K.@@,SU30MKK FBC1¥»¨­¤]¥i¹ï®ü·j¯Á..°£«D¦³CEC,§_«hSM2¯àµo´§ªº®gµ{Àu¶Õ¤Ó¦³­­¤F,¦¹¥~,¦L¶H¤¤ªÅ¹ï®ü¹p¹Fªº·j¯Á¶ZÂ÷¤@¯ë³£¤j©óSM2®gµ{,¤×¨ä¬O¹³¹wĵ¾÷,ÁöµM­¸ªººC,¦ý¬Û¹ï¨ä·j¯Á¶ZÂ÷¤]«Ü»·

FYI, the F-14/AIM-54 combo was developed before SM-2
A:§Ú³oªº½T¬O¤Þ³ë¥¢¸q..XDD


NO:362_54
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 04:21
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Use of fade charts to estimate target altitude for a 2D surface radar is a well known technique. Use of multipath propagation to estimate target height is not all that ¯«©_. How do you think the APS-145 on the E-2T determines the target altitude?

A: 1.fade charts <----¬O¤°»ò? :p
2.³oºØ¼Ò¦¡À³¸Ó·|¼vÅT°»´ú¶ZÂ÷§a?·í¶ZÂ÷«Ü»·ª½±µ¦^ªi¤w¸g«Ü·L®zªº®É­Ô,¥Ñ¨ä¥L¸ô®|(®ü­±?)¤Ï®g
ªº¦^ªi±j«×¤£¬O§ó·L®z?­Y¬O®ü¶H¤£¨Î®É·|¤£·|¦³¨ä¥L¤£¨}¼vÅT?


NO:362_55
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 04:46
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

This just means the search radar beam is mechanically steered to cover different elevations. SPS-48E steers its beams more precisely using electronic scanning but mechanical scanning works also. You can work out the maths yourself. The CAS search antenna rotates at 60 rpm. The beam cycles through all its elevations in 4.5 rotations, giving a 3D data renewal rate of ~14 times a minute. Guess how many times the SPS-48E rotate in a minute?
A:SPS-48E¤@¯ë»¡¬OÀW²v±½´y,»¡¦¨¹q¤l±½´y©È·|»~·|¦¨¬Û¦ì°}¦C¹p¹F,4.5¬íªº§ó·s²v¹ïLST(large
slow target)¥i¯à°÷¦n¤F,¦ý¦hªT¶W­µ³t­¸¼uÁÙ¬O­Ó¸nªù,¤£¥©§Ú­Ìªº°²·Q¼Ä·|¦³¶V¨Ó¶V¦hªº¶W­µ
³t¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼u,©Ò¥H¥¼¨Ó´£¤ÉÀ³¸Ó¬O­n§â³o­Ó·í¦¨¥D­n¥Ø¼Ð§a?¤£¹L§ÚÁÙ¯uªº¤£ª¾¹DSPS-48E RPM¬O¦h
¤Ö..XDD,¦L¶H¤¤¦n¹³¦³¤£¦P¼Ò¦¡/Âà³t.

Precision or angular resolution is a determined by beamwidth and signal processing. The Mk 92 radars have narrow beams and the mod.6 has processing that allows 2X improvements in range and low angle performance vs the mod.2. Having a height-finidng capability does not decrease the anti-sea skimmer capabilities of the system. In any event, the targets are designated to fire control radars (ie. STIR or the tracker in CAS) for more precise
tracking and fire control.

A:¨ä¹ê§Úªº·N«ä¬O,¦pªGªi§ô¯¶,ºë«×¬O°ª¤F,¦ý·j¯Á½d³ò«oÅܤp¤F,¦]¬°§A¥u·j¯Á4¹Dªi§ôÅ|°_¨Óªº°ª«×
/¨¤«×,BTW,¤£ª¾±z¬O§_¦³¹ê»Úªº·j¯Á¶ZÂ÷,2X improvements in range ¦n¹³¼t°Óªº¼s§i°Ú..XDD,
§Ú¬Ý¨ì¤@¼Ë¼Æ¾Ú,°w¹ï±°®ü­¸¼u³o¼Ëªº¥Ø¼Ð,SPS-48E °»´ú¶ZÂ÷31KM.¤£ª¾¬O§_¥¿½T?¦pªG¥¿½T,¨ºCAS
ªº¹ï¬Û¦P¥Ø¼Ðªº·j¯Á¶ZÂ÷¦³¥i¯à§ó¤j¶Ü?


NO:362_56
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 07:44
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>A:SPS-48E¤@¯ë»¡¬OÀW²v±½´y,»¡¦¨¹q¤l±½´y©È·|»~·|¦¨¬Û¦ì°}¦C¹p¹F,

Is FRESCAN not electronic beamforming? SPS-48E uses an ¡marray¡n of ¡mphase shifters¡n to do this. What do you think that is called?

4.5¬íªº§ó·s²v¹ïLST(large slow target)¥i¯à°÷¦n¤F,¦ý¦hªT¶W­µ³t­¸¼uÁÙ¬O­Ó¸nªù, ¤£¥©§Ú­Ìªº°²·Q¼Ä·|¦³¶V¨Ó¶V¦hªº¶W­µ³t¤ÏÄ¥­¸¼u,©Ò¥H¥¼¨Ó´£¤ÉÀ³¸Ó¬O­n§â³o­Ó·í¦¨¥D­n¥Ø¼Ð§a? ¤£¹L§ÚÁÙ¯uªº¤£ª¾¹DSPS-48E RPM¬O¦h¤Ö..XDD,¦L¶H¤¤¦n¹³¦³¤£¦P¼Ò¦¡/Âà³t.

The SPS-48E antenna rotates at 7.5 or 15 rpm :). To achieve longer range, you rotate at a slower rate, gives the echo longer time to bounce back from a distant target.

Against multiple sea skimmers incoming at high speed, a high data refresh rate is useful. If you are expecting sea skimmers in a high threat area, you can have the CAS not elevate its beam and just scan the horizon at 60 rpm. USN ships that do not have the CAS is getting SPQ-9B for high scan rate horizon search for sea skimmers. Those with SSDS integrates radar data from Phalanx Block 1A or 1B search radar to do integrated auto detection and tracking. In trials against supersonic sea skimmer drones like Vandal EER, its is often the Phalanx search radar that first detects the target.


NO:362_57
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 11:13
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¥i¬Osps48e¤£¬O¤]¬O¤@¤ùªº¶Ü¸òsps49ªº¶ê©·ª¬ÁÙ¬O®tÆZ¦hªº¤£¬O¶Ü`

NO:362_58
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 13:21
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¥i¬Osps48e¤£¬O¤]¬O¤@¤ùªº¶Ü¸òsps49ªº¶ê©·ª¬ÁÙ¬O®tÆZ¦hªº¤£¬O¶Ü

Yes, and your point is?

Mr. Anderson ©È·|»~·|¦¨¬Û¦ì°}¦C¹p¹F ... I tried to explain that SPS-48E IS a phased array. Major difference with fixed arrays like SPY-1 is that SPS-48E only scans (using phase shifters to steer 9 beams) in elevation and the whole antenna rotates to scan in azimuth. SPY-1, of course, steers beams in both azimuth and elevation.

I will get to the multipath height-finding later.

As for the 2X range performance of Mk 92 mod.6 vs mod.2 - that is what you get with a powerful TWT replacing the original magnetron transmitter. Greatly improved signal processing allows the radar to pick out the echo from clutter much better (the TWT gives a stable base of transmitted frequency from which to do doppler processing). That means that faint echoes the previous version mod.2 could not discriminate can be detected by the new mod.6 CORT.


NO:362_59
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/17 14:04
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô¦³¤H¥i¥HÀ°§Ú½Ķ¶ÜÁÂÁÂ

NO:362_60
»T»T ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/18 19:10
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Ä~Äò°Q½×Ä~Äò°Q½×¶â´«·QµÛ´£±d¼w¸¨¥[¯Å¯«¬Þ¨µ¬vÄ¥¨Ó¨ì¥xÆW¤]§Æ±æ¤¤²î¥[ªo¤@ÂI
¯àµo®i¥X»OÆW®ü®l²Ä¤T¥Nªº¤U¤@¥N®ü­xÄ¥¸¥

NO:362_61
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/19 05:25
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¢Ï¢Ü¡þ¢á¢Þ¢á¡Ð¢³¢·¢Ó¹p¹Fªº¤Ñ½u¬OÄݩ󡨥­­±°}¦C¡ÐÀW²v±½´y¡¨ªº§Î¦¡¡]¢î¢ú¢í¢ù¢ý¢í¢ö¢ë£B¡@¢û¢ë¢é¢ö¡^¡A¯à²£¥Í¤@­Ó§C®Çªiäªi§ô¡Aªi§ô¤j¤p¬°¤ô¥­¡þ­Á¥õ¦U¢°.¢µ«×¡A¥HÅÜÀW¤è¦¡§ïÅܪi§ô±½´yªº­Á¥õ¨¤«×¡A±½´y¨¤«×¬°¥¿¢µ¢´«×¡Ð­t¢±¢¯«×¡C¤Ñ½u°}¦Cªºªi§ô¸s¦¨µ§«¬¡A¦@¦³¢¸²Õªi§ô¸s¡A¨C²Õ¤S¦U¥Ñ¢¸­Ó¤£¦PÀW²v²Õ¦¨¡A¨C²Õ²[»\¢´.¢µ«×¡A¢·²Õªi§ô¸s¥i²[»\¤ô¥­½u¡Ð¥¿¢³¢´«×¨¤ªº½d³ò¡A²Ä¢¸²Õªi§ô¸s«h¯à°lÂܹF¥¿¢µ¢¸«×°ª¥õ¨¤ªº°ª°ª«×¥Ø¼Ð¡A¦p¼u¹D­¸¼u¡C¹p¹F¿é¥X¥\²v¥i¦b¢±¢³¢¯¸U¥Ë¡Ð¢µ¢¯¤d¥Ë¤§¶¡½Õ¾ã¡A¿é¥X¥\²v¤ñªº¢Ï¢Ü¡þ¢á¢Þ¢á¡Ð¢³¢·¢Ñ«¬¹p¹F¦h¢±­¿¡C¥Ñ©ó¤Ñ½u¥»¨­¥u¯à§ïÅܪi§ô­Á¥õ¨¤«×¡A¦]¦¹¥²¶·¥H¾÷±ñ±ÛÂà¾÷ºc¥Î¤@¤ÀÄÁ¢°¢´Â઺³t«×¶i¦æ¢²¢µ¢¯«×±½´y¡AÀò±o¥Ø¼Ð°ª«×¡þ¶ZÂ÷¡þ¤è¦ì¸ê®Æ¡A¹p¹F¢³¬íÄÁ¤@Âà¯à°»´ú¥b®|¢±¢±¢¯¯@¡þ¢°¢·¢¯¢¯¸U¥ß¤è¯@ªº½d³ò¡A¹p¹Fªi§ô°»´ú°lÂܶZÂ÷¥i¹F¨ì¢°¢¯¸U­^§`¡]¢²¢¯¤½¨½¡^°ª«×¡C¢Ï¢Ü¡þ¢Ï¢Þ¢á¡Ð¢³¢·¢Ó«¬¹p¹F¨C¤ÀÄÁ¯àµo®g¢µ¢¶¢´¢¯¹Dªi§ô¡A¤Ñ½u¨C¤ÀÄÁ¢°¢´Âà¡Aªi§ô¼e¢°.¢µ«×¡A¨C¢°¢´Âà¯àµo®g¢°¢µ¢·¹D¯¶ªi§ô²[»\¥Ø¼Ð¡A¦]¦¹¯àºë½T­pºâ¥X¤è¦ì¨¤¸ê®Æ¡C

NO:362_64
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/19 11:55
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô¶â§Ú¹ïsps48eºØºâ¦³ÂI»{ÃѤF

NO:362_65
Pikachuu ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/19 15:48
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

»P¶Ç²Î©ßª«­±¤Ñ½u2D¹ïªÅ·j¯Á¹p¹F¬Û¸û¡ASPS48E¡BTop-Plate³oÃþ¦b««ª½¤è¦ì¥ÎÀW²v±½ºËªº¹p¹F°£¤F¯à¤£¾aÃB¥~°ª«×¹p¹F´N¯àÀò±o¥Ø¼Ð°ª«×¡B¶ZÂ÷¡B¤è¬°¸ê®Æ¥~¡AÁÙ¦³¤°»òÀu¶Õ¡H¡]¨Ò¦pªi§ô¨¤¬O§_¤p¤@ÂI¡H¡^

ª½Ä±¤W¦b¥Ø¼Ð§ó·s³t²v¤è­±¦ü¥G¦û¤£¨ì«K©y¡A¦]¬°ÁÙ¬O±o¨ú¨M±ÛÂà³t²v


NO:362_66
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 00:50
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Okay, I need to clarify ...

Phased array radars scan beams by shifting the phase of the signals sent from an array of elements. (The array can be a stack of transmitting elements one above the other - usually angled slightly backwards to cover higher elevations).

Shifting the phase of the signals from one transmitting element to the next in the array result in the signals sent from the different elements being ¡mout of phase¡n with each other. This, in turn, causes ¡mconstructive¡n or ¡mdestructive¡n interference between the signals. As a result of constructive interference

As a public service to all physics and maths teachers - here is the equation:

phase shift between adjacent elements (in radians) = (2 X Pi/lambda) d Sin(Theta)

where:

Pi = ... eh ... that constant pi ... you know 3.1416 ... et seq ad nauseum

lambda = the wavelength of the signal

d = the distance between elements

theta = the angle you want to electronically form the beam.


This shift in phase can be achieved by

1) adding a time-delay to;

2) varying the frequency of;

signals between one element to the next in the array -

or 3) using a device that is actually called a phase shifter or PHASER (Star Trek fans take note!)

FRESCAN phased array radars like SPS-48 uses 2) ie. varying the frequencies of signals from one element to the next - in the vertical plane. That is ¡mshifting the phase¡nof the signals but it was not strictly correct for me to call it ¡mphase shifters¡n because there is a device called that name using an alternative technique to varying frequencies. Sorry about the confusion.

SPS-48E can vary its radiated power to suit operational needs. It can concentrate all power in one beam group to burn through jamming. But the most significant improvement over the previous versions is the Lo-E or low elevation mode where priority for power output is given to the beam groups covering the low angles. There is also pulse doppler processing done on these beam groups covering low angles. This is especially useful for dealing with sea skimmers.


NO:362_67
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 02:44
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Dear fer-de-lance

>There are no stupid questions

Here is any other stupid one from me. The HAW actually can be either Inertial Midcourse Guidance or the True Homing All the Way, what are the pro & con?
Also any practical & affordable means to change the PFG-2 into IMCG capable? Or simply change it into SB MBG as the ultimate retrofit? (as I don¡¦t think ROCN can get the MFR in the foreseeable future.)

Thanks in advance


NO:362_68
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 02:52
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Sorry for mistype SB MBG i/o SB MCG

NO:362_69
Mr. Anderson ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 04:27
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

³z¹La.ÅÜÀW¤è¦¡§ïÅܪi§ô­Á¥õ¨¤«×»P³z¹Lb.²¾¬Û¾¹¨Ó§ïÅܪi§ô¨¤«×³Ì¤jªº¤£¦PÂIÀ³¸Ó¬O«eªÌ¥u¯à«ö¹w³]ªº¤è¦¡§ïÅܪi§ô­Á¥õ¨¤«×,¦Ó«áªÌ«o¥i¦b¥ô·N®É¶¡ÂIÀH·N§ïÅܪi§ô«ü¦V,³o¤]¥¿¬OEMPAR»PSPS-48E³Ì¤jªº¤£¦PÂI,¦¹¥~b.ªººë½T«×¤]¸û°ª.¦pªG¯à±N°Ûºq¸õ»R¥[¨ì¤ÖªL..¤£..¬O±NEMPAR¥[¨ìPFG-2,¬Û«H¤£ºÞª±SM2,TC2,ESSM­þ¤@ºØ­¸¼u³£«Ü¦³·dÀY.


NO:362_70
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 11:18
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô¯uªº¶Ü¿³¾Ä¤¤

NO:362_71
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/20 13:09
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Albert,

Standard disclaimer follows: ... il ny a aucune question stupide ...

¨Ï¥Î¡u¥þµ{¥b¥D°Ê¾É¦V¡v(Homing-All-the-Way; HAW) ªº­¸¼u»Ý­n¥þµ{³£§â´M¼Ð¤Ñ½u¹ïµÛ¥Ø¼Ð¡C¨ä¯è¹D¥²©w¬O¡u«e¨î°lÂÜ¡v(lead-pursuit path) «D±`¶O«l¡C

¡uºD©Ê + ¤¤¬q«ü´§¾É¤Þ¡vÅý­¸¼u¥i¥H´`³Ì°ª®Ä²vªº¯è¹D(ª¦°ª¤§«á­Á½Ä)­¸¦V¥Ø¼Ð¡C¦]¦¹¡A¥Î³oºØ¾É¤Þ¤è¦¡ªº­¸¼u¥i¥H¤ñ HAW ­¸¦a»·«Ü¦h¡C SM-1 ©M SM-2 ®gµ{ªº®t§O¥D­n´N´N¦b³o¸Ì¡C

­t³dµo®i±±¨îSM-2 ­¸¼u WDS Mk 14 ¨t²Îªº Vitro ¤½¥q(¡u­^¯è¤Ó¡v¶°¹Î¦¨­û)¤w¸g±N³o­Ó¨t²Îªº³nÅéÂಾ¨ì COTS ¹q¸£³B²z¾¹¤W¾Þ§@¡C(°ò¥»¤W¬O¤@­Ó¥i¥H´¡¦bUYQ-70 ®i±±¥x©ÎªÌ¬O UYK-43 ¹q¸£ Open System Module ªº VMEbus ¤Wªº 44EP ¹q¸£¥d)¡C³o­Ó¤SºÙ¬°¡u¼Ð·Ç­¸¼u³B²z¾¹¡v(SMP) ªº¨t²Î¬O¥i¥H©M²{¦³ Mk 92 mod6 ¨t²Î³s½u¡C¬ü°ê®ü­x­ì¥»­p¹º¥Î³o­Ó¨t²Î§ï¨} FFG-7 ªº¾Ô¨t¡A¤£¹L«á¨Ó¦]¬°§N¾Ôªºµ²§ô¦Ó³Q¨ú®ø¡C¥Î COTS ¬J«K©y¤S¬Ù­«¶q¡A¦P®É¦pªG¬OÄ~Äò¨Ï¥Î¤w¸gµo®i¦¨¼ôªº CMS-2 ¤é³nÅé´N§ó¥[²Å¦X¸gÀÙ­ì«h¡C°£¤F SMP ¥H¥~¡AVitro ¤½¥q¥çµo®i¥X¾ã®M§ï¨}FFG-7 ¾Ô¨tªº¤è®×¡C©Ò¦³¦Ñªº UYK-43 ©M UYK-44 ¹q¸£ªº¥\¯à³£¥Ñ Visibridge COTS µwÅé¥N´À¡C¤j³¡¥÷ªºCMS-2 ³nÅ餴µM«O¯d¥Ñ Visibridge ¡u¥é®Ä¡v(emulate) ­ì¨Óªº¹q¸£¾Þ§@¡C¨t²Î©Ò¦³ªº®i±±¥x³£¥Î¤@¨t¦C¥Ñ FDDI LAN ³s±µªºUYQ-70 ¹q¸£®i±±¥x¥N´À¡C±N¨Ó¡ASSDS µ¥³nÅé§¹¦¨µo®i«á¡A­n´«¸Ë¨ì³o­ÓUYQ-70 + LAN ¶}©ñ¦¡¹q¸£¬[ºc¬O«Ü®e©öªº¡C

¥t¥~¤@­Ó§ï¨} Mk 92 mod.6 ªº¤è®×¬O¿D¬w®ü­x¤w¸g¿ï¥Îªº Mk 92 mod.12¡C³o­Ó¨t²Î°ò¥»¤W¤]¬O¨Ï¥Î FDDI bus ³s±µªº UYQ-70 ®i±±¥x¡C

SPY-3 ¦¡¦h¥\¯à¹p¹F(MFR) ²{¥¿¦bµo®i¤¤¡A­n¸Ë¨ì PFG-2 ¤W¥i¯àÁÙ¦³¤@¬q®É¶¡¡C§ó¤£­n§@¹Ú¸Ë EMPAR¡C­n¥H³Ì§C¦¨¥»§ï¨} Mk 92 mod.6 ªº CAS ¬O¦³¤@¨Ç¿ìªk¡C¨ä¤¤¤@­Ó´N¬O¾n¦b Darth Panda ¦Ñ®aHengelo ªº Thales (­ì¨Ó¡u²üÄõ¹q«H¡v¤½¥qSignaal) §ï¨} CAS ·j¯Á¤Ñ½uªº¤è®×¡C§ï¨}«áªº CAS ±N¦³¨â­Ó·j¯Á¤Ñ½u¡u­I¹ï­I¡v¦a¸Ë¦b²{¦³ªºÂà½L¤W¡C­ì¦³¥i¥H¥Î¾÷±ñ¦¡±N·j¯Áªi³t¤W¤U±½´y´ú°ª«×ªº¦Ñ¤Ñ½u¤´µM«O¯d¡C¤£¹L¡A¦b³o­Ó¤Ñ½u«á­±´N¥[¸Ë¤F¤@­Ó·sªº¥­­±¦¡¡B§C®ÇÄ|·j¯Á¤Ñ½u¡C¥­­±¤Ñ½u¨Ï¥Î¤@­Ó¤W¤U«Ü¼e (30 «×)ªºªi§ô¨ó§U´£°ª¸ê®ÆÂ½·s²v¡C

¦¹¥~¡A´N¬OSkolnik ¦Ñ±Ð±Â(¹ï¡A´N¬O¹p¹F°ò¥»¾Þ§@­ì²z½Ò¥»ªº§@ªÌ)¦b IEEE µoªí¥L¦b¬ü°ê®ü­x¬ã¨s¹êÅç«Ç(NRL)¬ã¨sªº¼eÀW·j¯Á¹p¹F¡C³o­Ó¹p¹F¥H SPS-49 ¬°°ò¦¡A§ï¸Ë¬° L- ¦Ü Lu- ÀW±a¼eÀW¾Þ§@ªº¹p¹F¡C¼eÀW¥[¯ßªiÀ£ÁY§Þ³N¨Ï³o­Ó¤S¦¨¬° SENRAD ªº¹p¹F¥i¥H¹F¨ì°ª«Ü¦hªº¶ZÂ÷¸ÑªR«×¡C³o­Ó¯S§O°ªªº¶ZÂ÷¸ÑªR«×Åý SENRAD ¥i¥H¿ë§O¥X±q¥Ø¼Ðª½±µ¤Ï®g¦^¨Óªº«H¸¹©M¦]¬°®ü­±¡u¦h¸ô®ÄÀ³¡v¤Ï®g¦^¨Óªº«H¸¹¡CSENRAD ªº«H¸¹³B²z¨t²Î¥i¥H±q¡uª½±µ¶Ç¼½¡v©M¦]¡u¦h¸ô®ÄÀ³¡v¤Ï®g¦^¨Ó«H¸¹¤§¶¡ªº¡u®É®t¡v¨Ó©w¥X¥Ø¼Ðªº°ª«×¡C³o­Ó¾Þ§@¤è¦¡Åý­ì¥»¥u¬O 2D ªº·j¯Á¹p¹F¡u·n¨­¤@ÅÜ¡v´NÅܦ¨¤F¤@­Ó 3D ·j¯Á¹p¹F¡CSkolnik ªº¤å³¹¸Ìªí¥Ü¡A¶Ç²Îªº3D ¹p¹F¤ñ¸û©ù¶Q¡A¤£¹L¡ASkolnik «ü¥X¡A³o¼Ë§ï¨}ªº SPS-49 ¬O¤ñ¸û«K©y¡C


NO:362_72
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/21 04:17
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Sorry guys, couldn t resist this one ...

>¡u«d¨¬¾A¼i¡v= bunionectomy


NO:362_73
¤¤¥xÆW¤p²Ô¤h ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/21 10:30
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

§Æ±æ¬O¥xÆWª©ªº¯«¬Þ¨µ¬vÄ¥
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¥iµo®g¤Ñ¤}ATBM;¶¯­·¤T«¬­¸¼u;¤Ï¼ç¤õ½b(¼uÀYªº³½¹p¬O°ê²£°ª³t³½¹p)ªº««ª½µo®g¨t²Î

°Ú!¤Ó¹Ú¤Û¤F,¹w¦ô³y»ù¤@¿´500»õ~1000»õ¥x¹ô!


NO:362_74
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/21 14:32
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>°Ú!¤Ó¹Ú¤Û¤F

ADAR was basically a down-graded version of SPY-1 (and ADAR-2N similar to SPY-1F) - why in the world would you want that when you can get SPY-1D?

We have been through this nonsense about navalizing TK-1 (let a lone TK-2). We are still heckled by the contractors for pulling out of that effort. That is a non-starter.

There is Mk-54 and Mk-46 mod5A(S) available so what would be the reason to waste valuable resources developing your own light weight torpedo?

There is the small issue of national survival at stake here. Priorities for military procurement is not 1) national prestige 2) keeping home-grown military R&D; alive ...

The only reason for indigenous defense programs was the Reagan-era charade to keep the PRC happy - and cooperative against the Soviet Union. Indigenous programs were and still are much more expensive than FMS. Yet most of the key (and program-specific) components still had to be imported. There never was much hope of export. So, there would never be any return-on-investment nor economies of scale for building up the manufacturing capabilities.

Indigenous programs solved the 1980s problem of access to advanced weapons technology. They filled a gap but for various reasons never developed into a viable self-sustaining industry. In a time of funding shortage and many expensive programs to pay for, it is foolish to waste resources on pie-in-the-sky programs when the political climiate is such that there is access to mature systems for importing.

Better get the systems while you can before that access is lost - the US presidential election is just around the corner.

Yes, you would still need a home-grown defense industry but the investment needs to be carefully targeted. Re-inventing the wheel on big ticket items uneconomical to produce locally is a waste of resources. Negotiating support contracts for the whole region from US contractors for major systems to be purchased would be an intelligent way to gain a role and business for the indigenous defense industry.


NO:362_75
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/22 12:49
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Á¹L¦Ñ¤jªÖ¯}¨Ò¥Î¤¤¤åµ¹§Ú­Ì¤@¨Ç­«­n§ï¨}¤è®×, SPS-49A(V)1ÁÙ¤£¬O²×·¥½T¬O¦n®ø®§, ¨º°¦³JÁöµM¬O³ÌºZ¾Pªº, ¦ý§Ú«o¹ï¥¦¤§SM-2¯à¤O¦sºÃ, ­Y¸Ë¤WÃþ¦üCEA-MOUNT¤§ªF¦è·|¦³À°§U, ¤S©Î¤Ó°øµØ?

BTW ±z¥i¯à°£­x¨Æª¾ÃÑ¥~, ÁÙ­n±ÐÀ´¤H­ÌAdm. Elmo Zumwalt¤§²z©À¨ä¤¤¤§Design-to-Cost (Design-Your Navy-to-Cost¥i¯à¥¿½T¤@¨Ç), ¤£¹L¼s©²¸Ü¤¤¤§Ú»°e­¹¶º¥i¯à§ó¶Ç¯«, ²×·|¤Þ¦Ü²´°ª¤â§C¦Ó¨âÀY­ø¨ì©¤


NO:362_76
ªÛùÜ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/22 19:14
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

°Ú!¤Ó¹Ú¤Û¤F,¹w¦ô³y»ù¤@¿´500»õ~1000»õ¥x¹ô!
¤£·|°Õ»¡¤£©w¨º¤Ñ¯uªº·|¹ê²{

NO:362_77
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 10:44
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Re: SPS-49, Raytheon has been talking about this height-finding using a multipath technique since the mid-1990s. There was a FASR planar array, low side-lobe antenna demo-ed for the SPS-49. It was even tested on an Aegis cruiser in the late 90s. In his SENRAD paper, Skolnik even mentioned a radar called the SPS-50 which was related to the SPS-49.

What worries me is that these upgrades have not yet been put into service yet. The USN seems to be concentrating resources on developing the next generation Volume Search Radar (VSR) and the Multi-Function Radar (MFR; SPY-3, X-band). The USN is also moving from L-band to S-band for the next generation Volume Search Radar (VSR). Sure hope they let some resources trickle down to some upgrade programs for the SPS-49 - after all the R&D; has largely been completed.

Re: Elmo Zumwalt - I am glad at least someone knew what he did (and not mistake him for someone with red fur, a long nose and squeeky voice). His Hi-Lo mix proposal to deal with block obsolescence of the FRAM destroyers was a classic case-study of optimizing limited resources. One might quibble over whether the FFG-7 could have been made bigger for more growth margins like Reuven Leopold s DD-963 design. But, the program got the job done - built up enough numbers of an ocean escort with adequate capabilities to fulfill mission requirements. The key here was adequate capabilities - a Claud Jones sized unit would have been useless and the Bronsteins would have been a little too small. Had there been a need, a 40 ft plug had been designed by Gibbs & Cox to stretch the basic FFG-7 hull.

CEA-MOUNT is a clever piece of kit, theoretically, it can steer multiple beams to illuminate multiple targets simultaneously. It was designed to be cheap and easy to make (the same guy who designed the Phalcon also designed this). If it was available, it would be great but ...

Seriously, with modifications, the STIR would be perfectly adequate for handling all tracking guidance tasks for the SM-2. The tracker in the CAS is a little too small and would not be as good for distant targets. Under the concept of designing to cost, the sensible thing to do is to retain these radars to guide SM-2. (One clever alternative would be to get Mk 74 directors from decommissioned DDG-2s, upgrade them to mod 15 and use two to replace the CAS and STIR). A SPQ-9Q on the mast head would satisfy even those ¡mdata refresh rate junkies¡nwe have around here.

It is coming back to haunt me now, 20 years ago, right after the Falklands, I was one of those who jumped up and down about the need for high data rate search radars for ASMD ... Now I have to tell people that you also need long range precsision tracking for air control and SM-2 engagements :) The foolishness of one¡As youth ...

In the Falklands, Sea Harriers scored more kills than any SAMs, the ships best able to direct them were County-class DDGs with a height-finder radar - not the ships with new-fangled, high data rate target indication radars. The 3D Type 996 was adopted after the war to fill this gap. The ROCN need this element in air defense - with a air launched AShM threat, it is necessary to have the ability to ¡mshoot the Indians rather than the arrows¡n, (a Naval War College analogy that great ROCN thinkers like retired Admiral Lan, Ning-li also likes to use.)

Finally, Christmas QUIZ!!!!

Give the final hull number of the ROCN ship that served continuously from the time of the Manchu Imperial Chinese Navy until her retirement from the ROCN in Taiwan.


NO:362_78
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 13:00
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

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NO:362_79
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 13:04
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>Give the final hull number of the ROCN ship that served continuously from the time of
>>the Manchu Imperial Chinese Navy until her retirement from the ROCN in Taiwan.

¨Ä¨Ä¡A¯à¤£¯àµ¹­Ó´£¥Ü¡H¬O¶Ô°ÈÄ¥°¦¶Ü¡H


NO:362_81
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 15:22
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¨Ä¨Ä¡A¯à¤£¯àµ¹­Ó´£¥Ü¡H¬O¶Ô°ÈÄ¥°¦¶Ü¡H

¦Ñ¦ò·Ý§¤¾r


NO:362_82
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 16:28
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>(One clever alternative would be to get Mk 74 directors from decommissioned DDG-2s, >>upgrade them to mod 15 and use two to replace the CAS and STIR). A SPQ-9Q on the mast >>head would satisfy even those ¡mdata refresh rate junkies¡nwe have around here.

>>His Hi-Lo mix proposal to deal with block obsolescence of the FRAM destroyers was a >>classic case-study of optimizing limited resources
¥H²{¦bªº°]¬Fª¬ªp¬Ý¨Ó ³o©Û­Ë¤]ÆZ¦n¥Îªº
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NO:362_83
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/23 16:53
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

1. Should we replace our ÀÙ¶§¯Å with 8 Spruance class? From 1998 to 2006, there might be more than 10 of Spruance class are going to decommission.

2. The other think I concern is that it seems like only one of Kidd class own RAST for one SH60, and rest of the Kidd class only carry SH2F. Spruance class can carry 2 sh60 after the modification. Are we going to do the same job for our Kidd class and all of them can carry 2 sh60?

Here are some info regarding the current status of Spruance class. If ROCN are to late to ask USN to lease/sale us those Spruance class, they might scrapped those ships.

As of mid-2000 the Navy planned to decommission 11 ships in this class between 2001 and 2005 and the remaining 13 ships between 2006 and 2009. Navy destroyers have historically been retired by 30 years of service. By 2009 the oldest unit of this class would have been in commission for 26 years. A plan to decommission four ships prematurely during FY 95 was canceled, but in 1997 it was recommended that those units which had not been backfitted with vertical launchers be retired. In 1998 the seven Spruance-class destroyers which did not receive the Tomahawk VLS upgrade (DD 974, 976, 979, 983, 984, 986, 990) were decommissioned after only two decades of service, to accomodate the introduction of the improved AEGIS-capable Arleigh Burke destroyers. During the year 2001 the ships Caron [DD 970] and Moosbrugger [DD 980] were decommissioned. All decommissioned ships were scheduled to be scrapped.
from http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-963.htm


Please help me to get the correct info regarding this issue.
Thanks


NO:362_84
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 11:33
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¦Ñ¦ò·Ý§¤¾r

Come on Albert! Thought you would be able to get it - considering that part of the name was VOYEUR in French ;)

>¦n¹³¬O75
^^
We have a winner!!

BRAVO ZULU ®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 !

Too bad the prize was not a lifetime supply of Kobe beef from the builder of the ship, Kawasaki! :)

BTW, Norman Friedman is known affectionately amongst his Chinese friends as the GURU ... (All would-be disciples make the pilgramage up Murray Hill to seek enlightenment.)


NO:362_85
flak ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 12:36
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¥xÆW¦Ñ¤@½úªºªÅ­x­x¨Æ°g¦ü¥G³£¥H¯èªÅ©çÄá°_®a¡A¹ï¾ú¥v¡]³æ¦ì©Î¸Ë³Æ¡^«Ü¼ô±x¡A¹ï²z½×«h¤£°÷¼ô±x¡C
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NO:362_86
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 14:19
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

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NO:362_87
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 14:51
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>¦n¹³¬O75
^^
We have a winner!!

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NO:362_88
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 14:53
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

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NO:362_89
SSN.Akula ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 14:55
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ôÀ³¸Ó¤£¬O¦Ñ¶§....¬O¤Ó¦r¸¹

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NO:362_90
SSN.Akula ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 14:57
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

75 ·¡Æ[...

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NO:362_91
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 15:42
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

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NO:362_92
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 16:03
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>¨C¦¸¦Ñ½±®ü¤WÆ[¬Ýºt²ß³£­¼³o¿´ ÁÙ¦³Á`²Î±M¦ì

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NO:362_93
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 16:26
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>>¨C¦¸¦Ñ½±®ü¤WÆ[¬Ýºt²ß³£­¼³o¿´ ÁÙ¦³Á`²Î±M¦ì
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NO:362_94
³·­· ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/24 16:59
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

>>§Ú·Q¦Ñ½±­n¿ï¤]·|¿ï³Ì·s ª¬ªp¦n ¥\¯à¦hªº º~¶§¦³®Ö¥Í¤Æ¨¾Å@ ²zÀ³³Ì¦³¥i¯à³Q¿ï¨ì

Sumner¯Åªºº~¶§¬O1974¦~±µ¦¬¡A1975¦~¦¨­x¡A¨º®É­Ô½±¥úÀY¤w¸g°·±d±ÑÃa«Ë§¿¥¢±±¡A½ö¦b¯f§É¤W©a©a¤@®§¡A¹N½×½ñ¤W¸ÓÄ¥¡H


NO:362_95
»T»T ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/25 19:24
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

cg¦³¨S¦³¥i¯à¨Ó»OÆWªü

NO:362_96
Luke-Skywalker ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/25 21:56
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¡ô²{¦b·Ç³Æ­n±µªº¬O¬ö¼w¯ÅDDG¡A½Í«á­±ªº´£±d¼wù¥[CG©Î«k§J¯ÅDDGÁÙ©|¦­..........

NO:362_97
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/26 12:58
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¨ºµó§¹¬ö¼w«á¦³¥i¯à¶Ü¦b±µ¶Ü­n¬O¯à¿ï¾Üªº¸Ü§Ú¤]³ßÅw¿ï´£±d¦Ó¤£¿ï§B«È¦]¦¹
­«¥~ªí¬Ý´£±d¦n¹³«Ü¦n¤S³Ì¦n¬O³Ì·s§ó·sª©spk4¨º´N¤Ó¦n¤F

NO:362_98
»T»T ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/26 19:42
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

°Ý¤@­Ó°ÝÃD¨º¬ü°ê·|¤£·|½æCGµ¹§Ú­Ìªü

NO:362_99
CatCat ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/26 20:36
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

What is spk4???? Never hear about that!! Secondly, it not like lady go on shopping, buy a warship is depends on the effective and effiency on the vessel.

Also, for United States Navy, they have delay the de-commission of their ealry CGs, since the did not have enough ships to conduct operation in the globe. Hope this can answer your question


NO:362_100
Luke-Skywalker ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/26 23:25
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

°Ý¤@­Ó°ÝÃD¨º¬ü°ê·|¤£·|½æCGµ¹§Ú­Ìªü

²{¦bUSNªºCG¥Î³£¤£°÷¥Î¡A­n½ü¨ì½æµ¹ROCN¡AÁÙ¦­¡IºCºCµ¥§a¡I


NO:362_101
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/26 23:48
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

A case was made by legislator Nelson Ku for requesting Block 0 CG-47 from the USN as an alternative to the Kidds. Problem is, the USN is still operating these ships in the Western Hemisphere Force - ie. no immediate plans to retire them. It was all a fantasy to support a political fight over the Kidds.

NO:362_102
Saga ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/27 00:35
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Actually, Baseline 1 (CG-47 to CG-51) will be decommissioned in FY06.
See Navy to Modernize Aging Aegis Cruisers

Cruiser conversion will affect CG-47 Baseline 2, 3 and 4 ships. The first five ships in the class, known as Baseline 1, will not receive the conversion. USS Ticonderoga, the lead ship of the class, is now 20 years old and will be decommissioned next year. USS Thomas S. Gates (CG-51) was commissioned in 1987. The first five ships of the class did not receive the vertical-launch system upgrade. The Navy plans to retire Baseline 1 in fiscal year 2006

But since CG48 Yorktown is used as a testship for the smart ship, so probbaly only 4 are available.


NO:362_103
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/27 05:12
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Lets get to the point. ÀÙ¶§¯Å will be the ships to be retired first, and we should aquire 8 Spruance class to replace our ÀÙ¶§¯Å. Here is the link about the decommission plan for US Spruance class. Our Navy should get the hot ship instead of cold one like Kidd class destroyers, so we need to push our Navy and congress to make decision soon.

NO:362_104
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/27 05:15
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Sorry!!! I forgot to give you the link.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/dd-963.htm

NO:362_106
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/27 14:03
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¦U¦ì­x¨Æ¦P¦n­Ì,¦b§Ú­Ì°Q½×»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥¤§«e,¬O§_¤]¸Ó°Q½×§Ú­Ìªº®ü­xªºÄ¥¶¤©O? ¦b¬ö¼w¯ÅªA§Ð¤§«á,®ü­x¤v¸g§Î¦¨¥|­Ó¥D­n§@¾Ô¸s.¨C­Ó§@¾Ô¸s¥H¬ö¼w¯Å¬°ºXÄ¥,¤U­±¦U¦³¤G±ø¦¨¥\¯Å©M¤G±øÀÙ¶§¯Å­xÄ¥.¦¨¥\¯Å­t³d°Ï°ì¨¾ªÅªº¥ô°È,¦ÓÀÙ¶§¯Å­t³d¤Ï¼ç¥ô°È. «ö·Ó§Ú­Ì®ü­x·íªìªº·Qªk,§Ú­Ì¬O­n«Ø³y¤Q¤»±ø1500¾·¯Åªº³q¥Î Destroyers (¦ý¬O§Ú­Ì«oªá¤F«Ü¦h¿ú¶R¤F¼Æ¶q¤£°÷,§@¾Ô¨t²Î¤£¬Û®e,¨S¦³¨¾ªÅ¯à¤O(¥u¦³®ü¾ë¾ð), ¨S¦³电¾Ô¨t²Î ECM or ECCM, ©M±q¨Ó¨S¦b¥ô¦ó´CÅéÂø»x¤W¬Ý¨ìªºATAS(V3)©ì¤|声¯Çªº±d©wÄ¥).

°²¦p³o­Óºc·Q¯à°÷³Q´Â³¥¦U¬É»{¦Pªº¸Ü,§Ú­Ìªº®ü­x´N·|¦³¥|­Ó§¹¾ãªºÄ¥¶¤(©M¥­®É´Á,«n¥_¦U¤@­ÓÄ¥¶¤¨µÅÞ, ¤@­ÓÄ¥¶¤°µ«O­×, ¤@­ÓÄ¥¶¤°µ°V½m. §@¾Ô®É´Á, ¥|­Ó§¹¾ãªºÄ¥¶¤´N¥i¥H¦b»OÆWªºªF,«n,¦è,¥_,¨¾½Ã»OÆW). ¨C­Ó§@¾ÔÄ¥¶¤´N·|¦³¤@±ø«k§J¯ÅIIA¯Å(¥¼¨Ó¤Q¦~¤§¤º¤@©w·|¶R),¤@±ø¬ö¼w¯Å, ¤G±ø¦¨¥\¯Å©M¤G±øSpruance class (°²¦p§Ú­Ìªº®ü­x°÷Áo©ú©M¥ß©e¤£¾xªº¸Ü, Spruance class ¥Î¨Ó¨ú¥N9¦rÀYªºÀÙ¶§¯Å­xÄ¥¬O«D±`smartªº°µªk)(¦³Ãö Spruance class ªºinformation, ½Ð¸Ô¨£¤W­±ªºLink©M¥þ²y¨¾½Ã153, 156, 163, ©M170¶°), ¥|±ø³q¥Î Destroyers, ¤ô¤U¦³¤G±ø¼ç¸¥(¬O¤°»òclass ´N¤£ª¾¹D¤F, ¦Ó¥BªA§Ð®É¶¡¥i¯à·|¦b10¦~©Î§ó±ß,³o´N¬O¬°¤°»ò¬ü°ê§Æ±æ§Ú­Ì§â¿úªá¦b¤M¤f¤W. ³o­Ó©Ò¿×ªº¤M¤f¤W,¥i¯à´N¬OSpruance class©M¤Q¤»±ø1500¾·¯Åªº³q¥Î Destroyers ¦Ó¤£¬Oªá¦bªA§Ð®É¶¡¥i¯à·|¦b10¦~©Î§ó±ßªº¤K±ø¼ç¸¥) ©M¤T¬[¦b¤Ñ¤W­¸ªºP3-C©Î¤T¬[MMA¤Ï¼ç¾÷, ¦A¥[¤W³o¤E±ø­xÄ¥¤Wªº¤Ï¼çª½ª@¾÷(¥i¯à·|¦³«k§J¯ÅIIA 1X1 or 2 §Ú§Ñ¤F, Spruance class 2X2, ¦¨¥\ 2X2, ³q¥Î Destroyers 4X1, ¬ö¼w 1X1 or 2 depends on the modification of ¾÷®w like Spruance class------Total 14 ¬[¤Ï¼çª½ª@¾÷.

³o¥|­Ó§¹¾ãªºÄ¥¶¤,¥]§t 4X9=36 ±ø­xÄ¥¥[¤W 4X14=56 ¬[¤Ï¼çª½ª@¾÷, ¦A¥[¤W12¬[ªøµ{¤Ï¼ç¾÷©M8±ø¼ç¸¥´N¬O§Ú­Ì¥i¥H´Á±æªº§Ú°ê®ü­x­x¤O.

¬°¦ó§Ú¤£§â±d©w¯Å©ñ¤J§@¾ÔÄ¥¶¤¤¤ªº­ì¦]´N¬O¤W­±©Ò³¯­zªºresult.·íªì°µ¨M©wªº¤H¯uªº¨S¦³·Qªº«Ü²M·¡.ªk°ê¤w¸g¤£·|¦A½æ¨ä¥L¤Q±ø±d©w¯Å¨Ó®·³o­Ó¯Ê¤f,¦Ó¥B­ì¥»±d©w¯Åªº¾Ô¨t--TAVITAC2000--¤SµLªk©M¬ü°êªºªZ¾¹¬Û®e,­n´£ª@±d©w¯Åªº¾Ô¤O¯uªº«ÜÃø, °£«D¦A¸Ë¤W¤@®M¬ü³W¾Ô¨t©M¬ü°êªºªZ¾¹¨t²Î. °²¦p³o»ò°µªº¸Ü, ªáªº¿ú¥i¯à¥i¥H¶R¤»±ø·sªº1500¾·¯Å³q¥Îªº Destroyers. ¦A»¡¤@¦¸,·íªì°µ¨M©w¶R±d©w¯Åªº¤H¯uªº­n§ì¨Ó¥´¤@¥´.

³o¤@Äæªº¥DÃD¬O»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥, ¦]¬°«k§J¯Å¬O¤@©w·|±ÄÁʪº, ©Ò¥H³Ñ¤U¨Óªº´N¬O¨º¤Q¤»±ø³q¥ÎDestroyers¸Ó±ÄÁʤ°»ò, ¦Ó¥B­n¨M©w¥Î¤°»ò­xÄ¥¨Ó¨ú¥NÀÙ¶§¯Å­xÄ¥(¥»¤H±j¯P«ØÄ³¥Î¤K±øSpruance class¨Ó¨ú¥N), §Æ±æ¦U¦ì­x¨Æ¦P¦n­Ì¯à°÷ Focus and get to the point, and dont spend our time on ¦Ñ¦ò·Ý§¤¾r ¬O¤°»ò ³oºØ¸ÜÃD¤§¤W.

¥H¤W¬O¤p§Ìªº·N¨£, ½Ð¦U¦ì­x¨Æ¦P¦n­Ì¦h¦h¥]§t.


NO:362_107
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/27 16:05
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

½Ð°Ý¦U¦ì¤j¤j, §Ú­Ìªº¬ö¼wÄ¥¯à carry how many ¤Ï¼çª½ª@¾÷? ©Ò¦³ªº Info ¬O»¡¤@¬[ LAMPI, °£¤F¦³¤@Ä¥¦³¥[¸Ë RAST ¥H¥~, ¤£ª¾¦U¦ì¦³¥ô¦ó®ø®§§Ú­Ì®ü­x会¹³¬ü°ê®ü­x¹ï Spruance class ¤@¼Ë, ¥[¤j¾÷®w©M¥[¸Ë¦U¤G®M RAST for two SH60 or S70? Please remember that ¬ö¼wÄ¥ and Spruance class use same type of hual.

Another thing is that will our Navy install RAM for ¬ö¼wÄ¥ also like Spruance class although only one of Spruance class install RAM. The reason why that US Navy only install RAM for one Spruance class is that the Spruance class will be decommissioned soon.

Thanks for help


NO:362_108
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/28 02:17
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

§Aµ´¹ï¨S¦³¾÷·|¼öÄ¥¥æ±µ¥v´¶¾|®¦´µ¦]¥þ¯Å¦bFY06·|°h§Ð(²{¦b¥u¦³¤»¿´²{§Ð), ¦Ó¥¦¤]¤£¬O´¶³q¤H¥i¥H¾i, 02¬ü°ê°eDD-971 USS David R. Ray¤ÎDD-973 USS John Youngµ¹§ÆÃ¾-free of charge, §ÆÃ¾¤]¨SÁx­n. ¤µ¦~·Q½æDD-992 USS Fletcherµ¹´¼§Q, ¤S¬Ý¬Ý´¼§Q¦³¨S¦³Áx¦â¥h¨ú¥N¥¦ªºCounty¯Å

¤S1500¾·, ¥H²{¦b¼Ð·Ç¥u¬O¨µÅÞÄ¥(©MÅX³vÄ¥¬Û®t«Ü»·), ¦Ó¥B³oºØ¾·¦ì·f¤J»·¬vÄ¥¶¤¤¤, ¤£³æ¹ï¾Ô¤O­½µLÀ°§U, ¤Ï¦Ó¬O­t²Ö.


NO:362_109
Vincent ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/28 03:20
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

1500¾· is dry weight, not fully loaded weight. and I am not the person why suggest 1500¾·, but our Navy 10 or more years ago. ±d©w¯Å is the result of this 1500¾· theory although ±d©w¯Å weight more than 3000T.

NO:362_110
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/28 09:48
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

³o¥|­Ó§¹¾ãªºÄ¥¶¤,¥]§t 4X9=36 ¤S1500¾·, ¥H²{¦b¼Ð·Ç¥u¬O¨µÅÞÄ¥(©MÅX³vÄ¥¬Û®t«Ü»·), ¦Ó¥B³oºØ¾·¦ì·f¤J»·¬vÄ¥¶¤¤¤, ¤£³æ¹ï¾Ô¤O­½µLÀ°§U, ¤Ï¦Ó¬O­t²Ö.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

³o¥|­Ó§¹¾ãªºÄ¥¶¤,¥]§t 4X9=36 ±ø
®@¤£·|®@·Q·Q·í¥xÆW¥|¤j¥D¤OÄ¥¶¤¥X»·ªù§@5.600®ü¯@»·ªº»·¬v§@¾Ô®É¨º½Ö¨Ó¬Ý¦u±q®ü©¤½uªu¦ù¨ì1.200
¤½¨½ªº»â®ü®ü°ìªüÃø¨ì¨º®ÉÁÙ¬O¥u¾a¥ú¤»ÀA¦¿¶â³o¼Ëı¹ï¤£§´©Ò¥HÁÙ­n¦b«O¦³16¿´2000¾·ªº³q¥ÎÅX³vÄ¥
¨Ó·í¥ú¤»ÀA¦¿ªººXÄ¥¤@°_¬Ý¦u®aªù¥­®É·í°V½mÄ¥¸ò±N©x¤É¾Eªº¥t¤@ºØ¸gÅ礣¬O«Ü¦n¶Ü³o16¿´«h¤À¦¨¨â­Ó
Ä¥¶¤¤@¤ä8¿´«n¥_¦U¤@¤£¹L¯è¦æ³t«×¥i¥H¥[§Ö¥HÀ³¥I§Ö³t§ïÅܪº¥x®ü¼W¥[¤ÏÀ³³t«×³o®É¥N¹ï¥xÆW®ü­x¨ÓÁ¿À³¸Ó¤£¯à¦b¤À¤j²î¤p²î¬£¤FÀ³¸Ó­n¨âªÌ¨Ã­«¤~¯à§¡¿Å¼çÄ¥¤]¤@¼Ë´N¦n¹³ªÅ­x¤Û¶H2000­t³d°ªªÅidf¤¤§CªÅf16¤]¬O¦ýÁÙ­t³d¥´À»¥ô°È¤@¼Ë§¡¿Å¤@¤U°¾¦V¥ô¦ó¤@¤è³£¬O¤£¦nªº³o¼ËÁ¿¤£¤p¤j®a¦³¨S¦³¬ÝÀ´


NO:362_111
»T»T ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/29 19:15
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¶â»¡ªº«Ü¦³¹D²z

NO:362_112
Albert ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/30 02:18
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Dear fer-de-lance

®J¤Î¦b¨â¦~«e´¿¶R¤J¤»®M¤G¤âSPS-48E, §ï§@³°¥Î, ±z¥iª¾®ÄªG¦p¦ó?


NO:362_113
fer-de-lance ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/30 11:21
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

Dont know. Remind me to ask Air Vice Marshall Rashed (Egyptian Air Force Chief-of-Staff) next time he is at a CENTCOM conference - just kidding :) Snooping around for info like that can get you into real trouble very quickly in that region!

ITT pulled off a big coup in beating out Lockheed-Martin for the contract. Probably won out on price from a lower cost-of-goods. The deal includes decoys known irreverently as ARMPITs. This acquisition improves coverage of Egyptian airspace (allowing overlapping coverage). It would also provide frequency diversity (S-band) alongside the L-band TPS-59(V)3 already in service in Egypt.


NO:362_114
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/30 11:53
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

®J¤Î¦b¨â¦~«e´¿¶R¤J¤»®M¤G¤âSPS-48E, §ï§@³°¥Î, ±z¥iª¾®ÄªG¦p¦ó?
¤£ª¾¹D­C

NO:362_115
ªÛ¼_ ¡@©ó¡@2003/12/30 20:50
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¤¤²î¥[ªo¥[ªo¥[ªo¬°»OÆW³y¥X²Ä¤T¥N²îÄ¥

NO:362_116
®ÇÆ[ªÌ2 ¡@©ó¡@2004/01/01 02:43
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

§Ú»{¬°®ü­x¿n·¥ª§¨úªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥ À³¸Ó®gCG47 BASELINE 1ªº¯«¬Þ
¤£ºÞ¬O¯²­É¨ì¶RÂ_ ©Îª½±µ¶RÂ_
­ì¦]¬O
1.­Yª½±µ¶R¬f§J ©Ò»Ý¸g¶O¤Ó°ª ²{¶¥¬q¬F©²µLªk°t¦X ¦Ó¥B·|²£¥Í¥ß§Y¸g¶O±ÆÀ½
¼vÅT¨ì¼ç¸¥ ¤Ï¼ç¾÷ ¶¯¤T ©M¤ä´© µn³°Ä¥¸¥¨O´«ªº¸g¶O
2.¬f§JµLªk¥ß§Y¨ú±o ­n¶R¤]¬O2012¦~«á¤F
3.BASELINE 1ÁöµM¸û¬°¦Ñ ¦ý¤´µM´£¤É§Ú®ü­x¨ì¥t¥~¤@¯Å
¦Ó¥B§ï¨}ªÅ¶¡»á¤j

­YCG47¨ì¤â(¬ù¬°2007-2008) §Ú°ê±N¦³
¨¾ªÅ:4¿´¬ö¼w ©M2-4¿´CG47
¤Ï¼ç:6¿´©Ôªk¸­ 8¿´KNOX
³q¥Î:8¿´¦¨¥\
Á`¦@ 28¦Ü¤T¤Q¿´Ä¥¸¥

§Ú»{¬°¨ä¤¤KNOX­YµL§ï¸Ë(¤×¨ä°Ê¤O³¡¤À) ¥i¯à©ó2013¦~«á³°Äò²^¨O
©Ò¥H¦b2008¦~¥i¥H¯²­É©Î¼oÅK¶RÂ_¤è¦¡¤è¦¡¤Þ¤J4¿´¥v´¶¾|®¦´µ
©Î¬O©ó2011¦~±Ò°Ê4-8¿´ªº¥úµØX¸¹­pµe ©ÎÁʶR«k§J
ºû«ùÁ`¼Æ24-28¿´Ä¥¸¥
¨Ã¹ï¦¨¥\ ©Ôªk·~°µ§ï¨}


NO:362_117
¥¬Äõ©g ¡@ ¡@©ó¡@2004/01/01 09:19
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

¥H¦b2008¦~¥i¥H¯²­É©Î¼oÅK¶RÂ_¤è¦¡¤è¦¡¤Þ¤J4¿´¥v´¶¾|®¦´µ
©Î¬O©ó2011¦~±Ò°Ê4-8¿´ªº¥úµØX¸¹­pµe
¹ïªF©¤¯E¯Eªº¤Ó¥­¬v¨ÓÁ¿³o¼ËªºÄ¥°¦¼Æ¥Ø·|¤£·|¤Ó¤Ö¤F

NO:362_118
ªü¥§ ¡@©ó¡@2004/01/01 10:59
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

§Úı±o¥xÆW»Ý­n§Ö³t¹B¿éªº¤j«¬®ð¹Ô²î¡A§@¬°¥~®q©M«n®ü½Ñ®qºò«æ¹B¸É¨Ï¥Î¡C
¦Ó¥B®ð¹Ô²î¤£»Ý°±ªy´«­¼¡Aª½±µ¥i¥H½Ä¤W³°¦a¡A¦b²{³õ¾Ô³õ¤U¦s¬¡²v¤ñ¤G¾Ôµn³°Ä¥¦n«Ü¦h¡C
¾ÔÄ¥ªº¤õ¤O¤É¯Å©Î³\«Ü­«­n¡A¦ý«á¶ÔÄ¥¶¤»P§Ö³t¤ä´©Ä¥¶¤¤]«Ü­«­n¡C

NO:362_119
TIGER ¡@©ó¡@2004/01/01 19:24
Re:»OÆW®ü­xªº¤U¤@¥N­xÄ¥

­n³y¤°»òÄ¥¶R¤°»ò²î¨ú¨M©ó®ü­xªº¾Ô²¤¬O¤°»ò??¦pªG¥u¬O¬°¤F¨¾½Ã»â®ü¶R«k§J¯Å¥v´¶¾|®¦´µ¯Å´£±d¼wù¥[¯Å¬ö¼w¯Å¹ê¦b¦³ÂI¦³¤~¤p¥Î??¦b¤U¤£¤~¹ê¦b¬Ý¤ÓÀ´®ü­xªº¾Ô²¤¬O¤°»ò??³°­x§ó¥i¯º¤F??Á`¤§¥xÆWªº¬Fªv©M­x¤è³£¬O¶Ã¤C¤KÁV??¤j®a³£¥u·Q«÷¸gÀÙ...¦³½ÖÁ¿¹L«÷°ê¨¾ªº¶Ü??¨S¦³§a!!XD....

§Ú»{¬°¾A¦X¥xÆWªº®ü­xÄ¥¶¤:

20~40¿´ºû¤h¤ñ¯Å§Ö¸¥(¥i¯à¶R¤£¨ì.¥i¥H¦Ò¼{¥ú¤»©ñ¤jª©)
50~60¿´¥ú¤»­¸¼u§Ö¸¥
10~20¿´Ây¹pÄ¥
10~20¿´1500¹y¯Å°ÎÁa­¸¼u¨µÅÞÄ¥(¥i¥H¦Û¦æ«Ø³y)
6~10¿´2000¹y¯Å¥H¤U¼çÄ¥
16~24¿´ªº¯«¬Þ¨µ¨¾Ä¥6000¹y¥ª¥k(³o¬O³ÌÃøªº³¡¥÷,­Y¯à¦¨­x´N¨ú¥N±d©w,¦¨¥\,ÀÙ¶§,¬ö¼wµ¥Ä¥)

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